Turkish shamshir ?

Andy Davis · 13th March 2006, 09:46 PM

Well the blade has been cleaned on one side, sympathetically and we have no markings. Otherside may yet reveal something but I dont think they are there.
Hoping Brian will come out of hiding for an opinion

B.I · 14th March 2006, 01:53 AM

hi andy,
sorry, but have been away.
thats very flattering to ask my opinion but like andrew, i am just an interested spectator. my taste and knowledge is blinkered on india and there is nothing indian about this sword. so, i must step aside and let others of more knowledge step in whilst i watch from the sidelines.
i can humbley offer that i feel the blade is european and the pommel cap is a later addition. other than that, will happily agree with whats been said already.

ham · 14th March 2006, 08:29 PM

These blades begin to appear in shashkas in the NW Caucasus in the mid-late 18th century, appear more commonly in all manner of Caucasian, Ottoman and Arab weapons by the mid 19th, and finally, appear in profusion in bedouin sabres by the early 20th-- therefore for purposes of this discussion they are probably best bounded between 1800-1900.

Eduard Wagner shows a number of such blades in Eastern European and Austro-Hungarian Empire mounts as early as the late 17th-early 18th century, though the earliest examples bear a far more pronounced (i.e. raised) backedge. The binding characteristic among them all is their distinctive fullering and what Wagner calls cabalistic markings. Stamped maker's marks or signatures begin to appear wth frequency at the forte and occasionally upon the tangs of these blades after 1850. Clauberg was a big producer, as was Knecht, whose mark was a close helmet. Both were German, so far as the term defines them, not Hungarian, though originally it is from Hungary that the form derives, and to Poland where so many were locally mounted.

Fullscale export from Europe to the MidEast, Caucasus, etc. via the Porte (i.e. Istanbul) probably began to occur about the 1850s, though the form was definitely popular in the Ottoman sphere from at least a century before. Caucasian "copy" export production probably began a decade or two later-- a classic reaction to the popularity of an imported luxury product which was available through a single source, in short supply and therefore pricey. The village of Amuzgh in Daghestan was especially well-known for a broad range of blade types. These were intended to pass as Euopean, hence were not locally maker-marked, in fact it is probable that the increase in marked blades out of Europe in the late 19th century was in reaction to these Caucasian copies.

Ham

Andy Davis · 17th March 2006, 08:41 AM

Well, I have to confess my surprise!
I cleaned the one side of the blade and nothing and then wonderd if I could be botherd to do the other side, especially as pattina was nice and there didnt appear to be anything underneath.
But then I did, just to balance the thing out and I've found something.
The photo really is as good as it gets, so a full word is unreadable but its clearly a block capital European text. Very shallow and worn away but its there.
So I guess, it certainly is Hungarian trade blade. Well done
I'm now wondering whats under the pattina of all my other swords!!! as this certainly wouldnt have shown up without the serious cleaning.
Cheers
Andy

17th March 2006, 08:41 AM	#4
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	The mystery continues Well, I have to confess my surprise! I cleaned the one side of the blade and nothing and then wonderd if I could be botherd to do the other side, especially as pattina was nice and there didnt appear to be anything underneath. But then I did, just to balance the thing out and I've found something. The photo really is as good as it gets, so a full word is unreadable but its clearly a block capital European text. Very shallow and worn away but its there. So I guess, it certainly is Hungarian trade blade. Well done I'm now wondering whats under the pattina of all my other swords!!! as this certainly wouldnt have shown up without the serious cleaning. Cheers Andy Attached Images

13th March 2006, 09:46 PM	#1
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Well the blade has been cleaned on one side, sympathetically and we have no markings. Otherside may yet reveal something but I dont think they are there. Hoping Brian will come out of hiding for an opinion

14th March 2006, 01:53 AM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi andy, sorry, but have been away. thats very flattering to ask my opinion but like andrew, i am just an interested spectator. my taste and knowledge is blinkered on india and there is nothing indian about this sword. so, i must step aside and let others of more knowledge step in whilst i watch from the sidelines. i can humbley offer that i feel the blade is european and the pommel cap is a later addition. other than that, will happily agree with whats been said already.

14th March 2006, 08:29 PM	#3
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	These blades begin to appear in shashkas in the NW Caucasus in the mid-late 18th century, appear more commonly in all manner of Caucasian, Ottoman and Arab weapons by the mid 19th, and finally, appear in profusion in bedouin sabres by the early 20th-- therefore for purposes of this discussion they are probably best bounded between 1800-1900. Eduard Wagner shows a number of such blades in Eastern European and Austro-Hungarian Empire mounts as early as the late 17th-early 18th century, though the earliest examples bear a far more pronounced (i.e. raised) backedge. The binding characteristic among them all is their distinctive fullering and what Wagner calls cabalistic markings. Stamped maker's marks or signatures begin to appear wth frequency at the forte and occasionally upon the tangs of these blades after 1850. Clauberg was a big producer, as was Knecht, whose mark was a close helmet. Both were German, so far as the term defines them, not Hungarian, though originally it is from Hungary that the form derives, and to Poland where so many were locally mounted. Fullscale export from Europe to the MidEast, Caucasus, etc. via the Porte (i.e. Istanbul) probably began to occur about the 1850s, though the form was definitely popular in the Ottoman sphere from at least a century before. Caucasian "copy" export production probably began a decade or two later-- a classic reaction to the popularity of an imported luxury product which was available through a single source, in short supply and therefore pricey. The village of Amuzgh in Daghestan was especially well-known for a broad range of blade types. These were intended to pass as Euopean, hence were not locally maker-marked, in fact it is probable that the increase in marked blades out of Europe in the late 19th century was in reaction to these Caucasian copies. Ham