Bedouin Sabre

ariel · 16th August 2017, 04:27 AM

Artzi Yarom once mentioned that he had seen similar sabres with Kilij blades.
I am not so lucky: two of mine carry European regulation blades and another one sports a local Arabian one.

We call them "Sinai/Negev", but let's not forget that they are first and foremost Beduin who did not give a hoot about geography in general and borders in particular. The only thing that cared about was (and still is) enough food and water for their camels and beloved black goats. Thus, I would not be surprised to find them all over the area, from Suez to Damascus and from the Mediterranean to the eastern border of Jordan and beyond.

The pattern of these sabers is a classic example of a purely ergonomical and cheaply-produced weapons with a parallel development in similarly poor and warlike societies.

Check ritual swords from Kairuan, Sardinian Leppa and sabers of Balkan Kraishniks. No guards, identical handles. Nothing fancy , but comfortable to hold and will do the job .

broadaxe · 18th August 2017, 09:47 PM

I collect these, and to my knowledge this form is the southern type, indeed from the Sinai, Negev an up to Jerusalem latitude, more or less. The northern type is fitted with a similar blade (or, whatever blade that came on the way), and has a Syrian shamshir-style hilt.
The preferred blade, however, on that southern type was European-made trade blade, mostly German. Those trade blades are of various qualities, but in general are better than the local imitation blades which are thicker, heavier and not so nice to the eye.
Recent info claims there is still one swordmaker who lives and produces such sabers in Gaza, fitted with grey plastic grips (I've seen shabriyyas with such handles).
In my collection I have Badawi sabers with leather baldrics sewn to the sheath, sabers with similar 'field procedure', one made from Khevsurian sword, one from quadara, one from Turkish-Ottoman military cavalry saber, one from a broken British 1908 saber, one from an unidentified antique European (long)sword ...

kronckew · 24th August 2017, 04:06 PM

she arrived today. 5in. grip, 30in. blade 1 3/8 in. wide 3/16in. thick. slight distal taper to hatchet point. two fullers. balance point 10 in. in front of the grip. somewhat pointn heavy.

grip appears to be a dark wood or horn layered on a central slightly lighter/redder central layer. two steel rivets/pins hold it all together on the tang. brass band at front of grip is plain brass sheet, bunch of holes form a dot pattern on one side. sm. steel tack at top to pin it in place. appears there was a similar band at the hilt, also hole patterned on one side (you can see a 'ghost' color change where it once was). sm. tack that held it is still tere too.

blade forte is engraved with two fishes either side of a "4" figure, topped with the word EAGYPT and a leafed floral/star or flower pattern, both sides. (Eagypt appears to be the alternate generic eropean spelling to the english Egypt) looks like thism may have been a trade blade.

the wood scabbard is covered in what looks like thin goatskin that has had a central rib threaded thru it rather than sewn with a fibre or hair. see photo. the upper section is thicker brown leather sewn with wire helix much like turkish scabbards. see photo. a much better cover than the rest. the 'drag' is a whitish metal rather crudely crinkled and bashed into shape, soldered seam. the end is actually open, showing the wood end, almost like the metal wore off. the crumpled band joining the two different leather sections, as is the crumpled section separating the drag from the goatskin, is actually a wrap if goatskin things, i assume to anchor the missing baldric.

weight w/o scabbad 656 gm.(01.45 lb. or 23.14 oz.)

kronckew · 24th August 2017, 04:07 PM

more photos

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th August 2017, 04:31 PM

[QUOTE=kronckew]

~blade forte is engraved with two fishes either side of a "4" figure, topped with the word EAGYPT and a leafed floral/star or flower pattern, both sides. (Eagypt appears to be the alternate generic eropean spelling to the english Egypt) looks like thism may have been a trade blade.

Salaams kronckew ~About pictures 3 4 and 5 above ...Could this be a local inscription done after a fashionable European inscription and roughly making an effort to inscribe two birds alongside a Talismanic 4 like the sword below and refered to at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=9&pp=30

In terms of possible copy cat design inscription see also http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/horn-...ver-decoration for a North African Nimcha.(sold).. Moroccan... in the same style but accurately executed indicating that the pattern would have probably been known as far east as Egypt thus the bridge is there between styles of weapon and surface design.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

kronckew · 24th August 2017, 04:56 PM

thanks, they could be 'birds' in lieu of beaked 'fish' or dolphins.

the '4' on the other side is the mirror image, a backwards '4'.

Kubur · 24th August 2017, 05:54 PM

well don't go too far
you have the country
it's written
AEGYPT

so Sinai

congrats

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2017, 07:43 PM

Perfectly well spotted Ibrahiim!
This is the kind of thread and perpetuation of discussion which is constructive in advancing our knowledge on a certain form or topic, and this example is classic in these Bedouin/Palestinian type sabres.

As Ibrahiim has well noted, this is clearly a blade marked with imitation inscription of much favored Hungarian type blades, in this case what have become known as 'the Transylvanian knot', a talismanic device in numerous forms. Ariel discovered these references to their character in an obscure reference on Hungarian swords some years ago (perhaps he could elaborate more as this was an astounding find).

As I recall, the '4' was indeed a talismanically oriented symbol used in a number of contexts, and the birds (I believe pigeons) were also symbolically dynamic with the 'Vivat Pandour' motto often included.

Here the AEGYPT word does, as Kubur astutely notes, does suggest association with the Sinai, and it is tempting of course to suggest the Greek structure in the spelling (though I do not wish to incur the linguistic barrage that presently looms large nearby).

These are intriguing swords with an often rustic charm about them, and though hard to define regionally by the very diffused nature of these fascinating tribal people who used them, they are always exciting to see.

24th August 2017, 04:06 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,253	she arrived today. 5in. grip, 30in. blade 1 3/8 in. wide 3/16in. thick. slight distal taper to hatchet point. two fullers. balance point 10 in. in front of the grip. somewhat pointn heavy. grip appears to be a dark wood or horn layered on a central slightly lighter/redder central layer. two steel rivets/pins hold it all together on the tang. brass band at front of grip is plain brass sheet, bunch of holes form a dot pattern on one side. sm. steel tack at top to pin it in place. appears there was a similar band at the hilt, also hole patterned on one side (you can see a 'ghost' color change where it once was). sm. tack that held it is still tere too. blade forte is engraved with two fishes either side of a "4" figure, topped with the word EAGYPT and a leafed floral/star or flower pattern, both sides. (Eagypt appears to be the alternate generic eropean spelling to the english Egypt) looks like thism may have been a trade blade. the wood scabbard is covered in what looks like thin goatskin that has had a central rib threaded thru it rather than sewn with a fibre or hair. see photo. the upper section is thicker brown leather sewn with wire helix much like turkish scabbards. see photo. a much better cover than the rest. the 'drag' is a whitish metal rather crudely crinkled and bashed into shape, soldered seam. the end is actually open, showing the wood end, almost like the metal wore off. the crumpled band joining the two different leather sections, as is the crumpled section separating the drag from the goatskin, is actually a wrap if goatskin things, i assume to anchor the missing baldric. weight w/o scabbad 656 gm.(01.45 lb. or 23.14 oz.) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 24th August 2017 at 04:22 PM.

24th August 2017, 04:07 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,253	more photos Attached Images

24th August 2017, 04:31 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	[QUOTE=kronckew] ~blade forte is engraved with two fishes either side of a "4" figure, topped with the word EAGYPT and a leafed floral/star or flower pattern, both sides. (Eagypt appears to be the alternate generic eropean spelling to the english Egypt) looks like thism may have been a trade blade. Salaams kronckew ~About pictures 3 4 and 5 above ...Could this be a local inscription done after a fashionable European inscription and roughly making an effort to inscribe two birds alongside a Talismanic 4 like the sword below and refered to at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=9&pp=30 In terms of possible copy cat design inscription see also http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/horn-...ver-decoration for a North African Nimcha.(sold).. Moroccan... in the same style but accurately executed indicating that the pattern would have probably been known as far east as Egypt thus the bridge is there between styles of weapon and surface design. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 24th August 2017 at 04:53 PM.

24th August 2017, 04:56 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,253	thanks, they could be 'birds' in lieu of beaked 'fish' or dolphins. the '4' on the other side is the mirror image, a backwards '4'. Last edited by kronckew; 24th August 2017 at 05:11 PM.

16th August 2017, 04:27 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Artzi Yarom once mentioned that he had seen similar sabres with Kilij blades. I am not so lucky: two of mine carry European regulation blades and another one sports a local Arabian one. We call them "Sinai/Negev", but let's not forget that they are first and foremost Beduin who did not give a hoot about geography in general and borders in particular. The only thing that cared about was (and still is) enough food and water for their camels and beloved black goats. Thus, I would not be surprised to find them all over the area, from Suez to Damascus and from the Mediterranean to the eastern border of Jordan and beyond. The pattern of these sabers is a classic example of a purely ergonomical and cheaply-produced weapons with a parallel development in similarly poor and warlike societies. Check ritual swords from Kairuan, Sardinian Leppa and sabers of Balkan Kraishniks. No guards, identical handles. Nothing fancy , but comfortable to hold and will do the job .

18th August 2017, 09:47 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	I collect these, and to my knowledge this form is the southern type, indeed from the Sinai, Negev an up to Jerusalem latitude, more or less. The northern type is fitted with a similar blade (or, whatever blade that came on the way), and has a Syrian shamshir-style hilt. The preferred blade, however, on that southern type was European-made trade blade, mostly German. Those trade blades are of various qualities, but in general are better than the local imitation blades which are thicker, heavier and not so nice to the eye. Recent info claims there is still one swordmaker who lives and produces such sabers in Gaza, fitted with grey plastic grips (I've seen shabriyyas with such handles). In my collection I have Badawi sabers with leather baldrics sewn to the sheath, sabers with similar 'field procedure', one made from Khevsurian sword, one from quadara, one from Turkish-Ottoman military cavalry saber, one from a broken British 1908 saber, one from an unidentified antique European (long)sword ...

24th August 2017, 05:54 PM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	well don't go too far you have the country it's written AEGYPT so Sinai congrats

24th August 2017, 07:43 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,610	Perfectly well spotted Ibrahiim! This is the kind of thread and perpetuation of discussion which is constructive in advancing our knowledge on a certain form or topic, and this example is classic in these Bedouin/Palestinian type sabres. As Ibrahiim has well noted, this is clearly a blade marked with imitation inscription of much favored Hungarian type blades, in this case what have become known as 'the Transylvanian knot', a talismanic device in numerous forms. Ariel discovered these references to their character in an obscure reference on Hungarian swords some years ago (perhaps he could elaborate more as this was an astounding find). As I recall, the '4' was indeed a talismanically oriented symbol used in a number of contexts, and the birds (I believe pigeons) were also symbolically dynamic with the 'Vivat Pandour' motto often included. Here the AEGYPT word does, as Kubur astutely notes, does suggest association with the Sinai, and it is tempting of course to suggest the Greek structure in the spelling (though I do not wish to incur the linguistic barrage that presently looms large nearby). These are intriguing swords with an often rustic charm about them, and though hard to define regionally by the very diffused nature of these fascinating tribal people who used them, they are always exciting to see.