Silver Keris

Jean · 11th August 2017, 10:52 AM

Hello Roland,
Nice kris but not traditional Balinese IMO, especially the sandang walikat scabbard with added buntut.
Regards

Jean · 11th August 2017, 10:58 AM

Hello Roland,
The kinatah technique does not use gold leaf.
Regards

mariusgmioc · 11th August 2017, 11:50 AM

Hello Roland,

I am probably one of the less knowledgeable people here, but to me, this keris looks fairly new.

Roland_M · 11th August 2017, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Roland,
The kinatah technique does not use gold leaf.
Regards

Hello Jean,

thank you for your opinion, it is helpful for me.

From the Internet: "On blades from Malaysia, Kinatah is a relief decoration on a blade of the highest order."

Regards

Sajen · 11th August 2017, 01:50 PM

I know and have handled the keris Roland own already longer several times and have Roland always told that this keris is very unusual and don't show traditional Bali work, this for dress and handle. The blade is an other object but in short, it's also not what I would think to see by a good old Bali blade.

Like all can see by the pictures Roland has posted is the quality of the silver work a very good one but I am unsure where done. The motives are like stated from Jean already are not Balinese style. But when you look to the pictures carefully (see in down) you can see the wooden core, the wood is old and very dry, this is nothing what I would to see by a recent worked scabbard. Also the overall impression let me think to see a fairly old piece in all parts in front of me.
By my visit to the Hollenstedt Exhibition I have had the chance to handle to more keris where the scabbard was worked in exactly the same manner, I am sure they coming all from the same workshop. One of this other two pieces has had a similar worked blade like the one from Roland without gandik figure and kinatah, the other one has had a fairly good worked older Bali blade. Also by this both examples was the wooden core visible and show good age. So I think that this pieces get worked wherever as earliest end of 19th century until latest the thirties.
Like said before, I am very very unsure where this three pieces get worked.

Jean · 11th August 2017, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello Jean,

thank you for your opinion, it is helpful for me.

From the Internet: "On blades from Malaysia, Kinatah is a relief decoration on a blade of the highest order."

Regards

Hello Roland,
I mean that kinatah is made from gold sheet (thicker than leaf). Yes, original kinatah blades are generally of high quality.
As you have my book you can find a rather similar silver pendok on pic 3.15, page 201.
Regards

Sajen · 11th August 2017, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

As you have my book you can find a rather similar silver pendok on pic 3.15, page 201.

Hello Jean,

yes, so far I can see it it could be indeed the same workshop.

BTW, great book from you, congrats!

Regards,
Detlef

David · 13th August 2017, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

yes, so far I can see it it could be indeed the same workshop.

I don't know. From what i can see of the pendok in Jean's book (there is no detail shot of it) it would seem a bit of a leap to identify it as coming from the same workshop. Both the stem of this sheath and Jean's pendok use a vegetal pattern, but from what i can see it does not appear to be the same foliage motif. They could very well use the same silver working technique, but i would have to see Jean's example closer to tell. I do agree with Kai that if we are to make such comparisons it would be nice if Jean could upload a photo or two of his pendok to make that easier.
It is interesting though that both these works in silver seem to appear on what we would otherwise assume were Bali keris even if the workmanship of the dress appears otherwise. Is it possible this silver work could be a product of Lombok? Could that explain the other flavors we are detecting in these forms of dress?

Jean · 13th August 2017, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I don't know. From what i can see of the pendok in Jean's book (there is no detail shot of it) it would seem a bit of a leap to identify it as coming from the same workshop. Both the stem of this sheath and Jean's pendok use a vegetal pattern, but from what i can see it does not appear to be the same foliage motif. They could very well use the same silver working technique, but i would have to see Jean's example closer to tell. I do agree with Kai that if we are to make such comparisons it would be nice if Jean could upload a photo or two of his pendok to make that easier.
It is interesting though that both these works in silver seem to appear on what we would otherwise assume were Bali keris even if the workmanship of the dress appears otherwise. Is it possible this silverware could be a product of Lombok? Could that explain the other flavors we are detecting in these forms of dress?

Hello David,
I am not at home so I can only show this pic of my pendok. Athough I see some similarities with the one from Roland (buntut), the style of floral engraving and silver quality are different indeed. I got this piece separately from the kris itself but it was fitted on another Bali/ Lombok scabbard. I would also place the origin of my piece to Lombok or Sumbawa (Bugis influence).
Regards

kai · 12th August 2017, 06:46 PM

Hello Jean,

Quote:

As you have my book you can find a rather similar silver pendok on pic 3.15, page 201.

Considering that your book is already sold out, it might be a good idea to post a pic of your keris here, too…

Regards,
Kai

11th August 2017, 01:50 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	I know and have handled the keris Roland own already longer several times and have Roland always told that this keris is very unusual and don't show traditional Bali work, this for dress and handle. The blade is an other object but in short, it's also not what I would think to see by a good old Bali blade. Like all can see by the pictures Roland has posted is the quality of the silver work a very good one but I am unsure where done. The motives are like stated from Jean already are not Balinese style. But when you look to the pictures carefully (see in down) you can see the wooden core, the wood is old and very dry, this is nothing what I would to see by a recent worked scabbard. Also the overall impression let me think to see a fairly old piece in all parts in front of me. By my visit to the Hollenstedt Exhibition I have had the chance to handle to more keris where the scabbard was worked in exactly the same manner, I am sure they coming all from the same workshop. One of this other two pieces has had a similar worked blade like the one from Roland without gandik figure and kinatah, the other one has had a fairly good worked older Bali blade. Also by this both examples was the wooden core visible and show good age. So I think that this pieces get worked wherever as earliest end of 19th century until latest the thirties. Like said before, I am very very unsure where this three pieces get worked. Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 11th August 2017 at 02:33 PM.

11th August 2017, 10:52 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Roland, Nice kris but not traditional Balinese IMO, especially the sandang walikat scabbard with added buntut. Regards

11th August 2017, 10:58 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Roland, The kinatah technique does not use gold leaf. Regards

11th August 2017, 11:50 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Hello Roland, I am probably one of the less knowledgeable people here, but to me, this keris looks fairly new.