Need Help to Identify Sepuh (Old) / Kamardikan Java Keris

Sajen · 11th August 2017, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Please could someone put me on the right track? Thank you!

Hello Johan, at this picture you can see clearly the core. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 11th August 2017, 01:51 PM

Johan, a keris blade is made by forge welding a piece of steel between two pieces of pamor material that has been made by forge welding iron and a contrasting material.

If the forging is well made and then well carved, the edge of the steel core projects beyond the pamor material around all the edges of the blade.

The diagram that Detlef has drawn shows the steel core where it has emerged from the pamor and now forms the edge of the blade.

The blade is in fact a laminated sandwich, pamor on the faces of the blade, steel core running through the centre of the blade and forming the cutting edges.

Johan van Zyl · 11th August 2017, 03:50 PM

Yes, Sajen, thank you for indicating it, and this is what I expect to see, and it is clear on the blade that Gustav has presented. And it is a nice illustration of what Alan is describing. But I have been referring to Bejo's blade all along, specifically the excellent 3rd picture from the top on Bejo's post #3. I'm looking for that same edge showing the steel, but I do not find it at all.

Sajen · 11th August 2017, 04:00 PM

Hello Johan,
use the picture from the uncleaned blade and make it bigger on your screen and you will see.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 11th August 2017, 04:02 PM

Hello Johan,
use the picture from the uncleaned blade and make it bigger on your screen and you will see. Post #4.

Regards,
Detlef

sorry, double post, that happens when you use a mobile phone.

A. G. Maisey · 11th August 2017, 11:34 PM

Johan, if you look at the deep fullers in the blade base, you will also see the core, in cutting the fullers (kruwingan) the maker has cut through the pamor material and exposed the core.

In post#3, third image down, on the left hand side of the blade you will see a very faint lighter line. This can indicate one of two things, the first is that the blade edge was forged down prior to the cold work being done, the second is that we can see a weld joint in the core. Impossible to know which from a photo, this would need examination under magnification.

All of the wider black areas that we can see on the blade are most probably blade core. There is a very, very faint possibility that the inside layer of iron in the pamor was left thicker than the outside layers, and what we can see is not blade core, but rather an attempt to economise on work time and fuel, but this is unlikely.

Think of a pamor blade as a ham on rye sandwich, with the ham sticking out from the bread; cut the bread too thin, and you'll likely see bits of the ham trough the bread.

There is a method of blade construction that was sometimes used in very old blades, Mataram and before, where steel core construction is not used. It is an older method economises on steel by using an overlapping double V construction, similar to that used in Viking swords, where a steel edge is welded into the solid blade core.

Johan van Zyl · 12th August 2017, 09:48 AM

Alan, I see the faint lighter line you describe. I had in my imagination expected the core strip to be more apparant. Thank you & Sajen for the trouble to point these out.

11th August 2017, 01:51 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	Johan, a keris blade is made by forge welding a piece of steel between two pieces of pamor material that has been made by forge welding iron and a contrasting material. If the forging is well made and then well carved, the edge of the steel core projects beyond the pamor material around all the edges of the blade. The diagram that Detlef has drawn shows the steel core where it has emerged from the pamor and now forms the edge of the blade. The blade is in fact a laminated sandwich, pamor on the faces of the blade, steel core running through the centre of the blade and forming the cutting edges.

11th August 2017, 03:50 PM	#3
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Yes, Sajen, thank you for indicating it, and this is what I expect to see, and it is clear on the blade that Gustav has presented. And it is a nice illustration of what Alan is describing. But I have been referring to Bejo's blade all along, specifically the excellent 3rd picture from the top on Bejo's post #3. I'm looking for that same edge showing the steel, but I do not find it at all.

11th August 2017, 04:00 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,269	Hello Johan, use the picture from the uncleaned blade and make it bigger on your screen and you will see. Regards, Detlef

11th August 2017, 04:02 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,269	Hello Johan, use the picture from the uncleaned blade and make it bigger on your screen and you will see. Post #4. Regards, Detlef sorry, double post, that happens when you use a mobile phone.

11th August 2017, 11:34 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	Johan, if you look at the deep fullers in the blade base, you will also see the core, in cutting the fullers (kruwingan) the maker has cut through the pamor material and exposed the core. In post#3, third image down, on the left hand side of the blade you will see a very faint lighter line. This can indicate one of two things, the first is that the blade edge was forged down prior to the cold work being done, the second is that we can see a weld joint in the core. Impossible to know which from a photo, this would need examination under magnification. All of the wider black areas that we can see on the blade are most probably blade core. There is a very, very faint possibility that the inside layer of iron in the pamor was left thicker than the outside layers, and what we can see is not blade core, but rather an attempt to economise on work time and fuel, but this is unlikely. Think of a pamor blade as a ham on rye sandwich, with the ham sticking out from the bread; cut the bread too thin, and you'll likely see bits of the ham trough the bread. There is a method of blade construction that was sometimes used in very old blades, Mataram and before, where steel core construction is not used. It is an older method economises on steel by using an overlapping double V construction, similar to that used in Viking swords, where a steel edge is welded into the solid blade core.

12th August 2017, 09:48 AM	#7
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Alan, I see the faint lighter line you describe. I had in my imagination expected the core strip to be more apparant. Thank you & Sajen for the trouble to point these out.