Need Help to Identify Sepuh (Old) / Kamardikan Java Keris

Gustav · 10th August 2017, 10:47 AM

Joe,

Quote:

Also, I have tried to contact the seller of my keris. He told me that the keris was bought from a village in Magetan. The previous owner got this keris from his parents. Although there is not 100% guarantee that this keris is created in Magetan, but he got the keris there.

such a coincidence! And so well placed in time.

"Keris moves in mysterious ways."

All I can say, having handled a Keris by Paku Rodji, some time before I did see the article, is, that the Greneng of it wasn't at all similar to the quite distinctive one presented here, it had that small Stupa-like carving indeed, it didn't had the tightening around the Pesi and it's Garap was of good quality. It had also less Pamor indeed.

But, as I said, the feeling handling it was similar to the one I posted.

If there is a possibility for it to be a work from Magetan, I guess it would be done before the time of Empu Paku Rodji.

Bejo · 10th August 2017, 02:35 PM

Hello Johan,

Thank you for your comment,
I only try to make the photo the best as I can, so the other member can give more accurate opinion based on the photos. Yes, cardboard is one of the simple option we have to take a keris photo

When I take a photo of keris, usually I add small object under the blade, so the keris photo will not have much distortion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

"Keris moves in mysterious ways."

Hello Gustav,

I really agree with that statement. Happened to me sometimes. Just dont look for the mysteriousness, but be grateful when you feel it.

Just my guess, maybe my keris is done by the Panjak. Maybe he still in the process for perfection, so there is still some rough work in this keris.

Hello A. G. Maisey. Thank you for sharing information about Empu keris. It gives me better knowledge to know more about keris.

Thank you,

Best regards,

Joe

A. G. Maisey · 10th August 2017, 10:32 PM

You are most welcome Joe.

Yeah, I think you could be right about the possible maker. In fact, I think it is possible that more than a few of the lesser keris that we see were made by somebody associated with keris, rather than empus, or pandai keris, or even smiths.

In Solo during the 1980's, there was a m'ranggi who worked for me, in fact I knew him for 12 or 14 years, and he made a few keris. They were Solo pattern, and pretty good productions, he had a smith make the forging then he carved it. Also one of Pak Pauzan's panjaks (striker) used to make keris, he forged them in Pakpus' forge in his own time and took them home to carve.

Johan van Zyl · 11th August 2017, 09:36 AM

Alan, thank you for your kind initial reply to my query. You say the core is clearly visible. That, of course, is when you know what you are looking at, and you know what to look for. I am struggling to see the core, and the reason is that I don't know what to look for.

What is a core? In my limited knowledge, a core is a hard steel sheet inserted between the laminated pieces at a certain stage of the forging process. I understand by that, that the core metal is virtually covered (hidden from sight) by the pamor. Inspecting post #3, in which Bejo gave us good pics, I see with my untrained eye a refurbished blade (appearing so new as to have been made yesterday) with a laminated pattern that looks like islands of silver-colored metal lying in a sea of black metal. Of course, we have here an iron-pamor combination. But what does the pamor consist of? It would be "dark" iron and either nickel or white (phosphorus-rich) iron. It gives a sharp contrast. But in Bejo's blade I see ONLY two colors: very light and very dark. Where does the core steel lie? And what is the color of the core steel? Surely it should run all along the edge.

Alan, you say the core is the narrow black border between the blade edge and the start of the pamor. Well, then ALL the very dark metal I see = core material! Can that be? I thought the steel core was nearly fully imbedded between the pamor layers, and that only a very narrow strip can be seen at the very edge. This I fail to see in Bejo's pics. So it is clear from the above I am as confused as ever!

I'm making many statements in the above as if they are facts. However, there is a purpose to that. If I do not report what I think I see, no-one can help me see where my reasoning is faulty. Please could someone put me on the right track? Thank you!

Sajen · 11th August 2017, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Please could someone put me on the right track? Thank you!

Hello Johan, at this picture you can see clearly the core. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 11th August 2017, 01:51 PM

Johan, a keris blade is made by forge welding a piece of steel between two pieces of pamor material that has been made by forge welding iron and a contrasting material.

If the forging is well made and then well carved, the edge of the steel core projects beyond the pamor material around all the edges of the blade.

The diagram that Detlef has drawn shows the steel core where it has emerged from the pamor and now forms the edge of the blade.

The blade is in fact a laminated sandwich, pamor on the faces of the blade, steel core running through the centre of the blade and forming the cutting edges.

Johan van Zyl · 11th August 2017, 03:50 PM

Yes, Sajen, thank you for indicating it, and this is what I expect to see, and it is clear on the blade that Gustav has presented. And it is a nice illustration of what Alan is describing. But I have been referring to Bejo's blade all along, specifically the excellent 3rd picture from the top on Bejo's post #3. I'm looking for that same edge showing the steel, but I do not find it at all.

10th August 2017, 10:32 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	You are most welcome Joe. Yeah, I think you could be right about the possible maker. In fact, I think it is possible that more than a few of the lesser keris that we see were made by somebody associated with keris, rather than empus, or pandai keris, or even smiths. In Solo during the 1980's, there was a m'ranggi who worked for me, in fact I knew him for 12 or 14 years, and he made a few keris. They were Solo pattern, and pretty good productions, he had a smith make the forging then he carved it. Also one of Pak Pauzan's panjaks (striker) used to make keris, he forged them in Pakpus' forge in his own time and took them home to carve.

11th August 2017, 09:36 AM	#4
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Alan, thank you for your kind initial reply to my query. You say the core is clearly visible. That, of course, is when you know what you are looking at, and you know what to look for. I am struggling to see the core, and the reason is that I don't know what to look for. What is a core? In my limited knowledge, a core is a hard steel sheet inserted between the laminated pieces at a certain stage of the forging process. I understand by that, that the core metal is virtually covered (hidden from sight) by the pamor. Inspecting post #3, in which Bejo gave us good pics, I see with my untrained eye a refurbished blade (appearing so new as to have been made yesterday) with a laminated pattern that looks like islands of silver-colored metal lying in a sea of black metal. Of course, we have here an iron-pamor combination. But what does the pamor consist of? It would be "dark" iron and either nickel or white (phosphorus-rich) iron. It gives a sharp contrast. But in Bejo's blade I see ONLY two colors: very light and very dark. Where does the core steel lie? And what is the color of the core steel? Surely it should run all along the edge. Alan, you say the core is the narrow black border between the blade edge and the start of the pamor. Well, then ALL the very dark metal I see = core material! Can that be? I thought the steel core was nearly fully imbedded between the pamor layers, and that only a very narrow strip can be seen at the very edge. This I fail to see in Bejo's pics. So it is clear from the above I am as confused as ever! I'm making many statements in the above as if they are facts. However, there is a purpose to that. If I do not report what I think I see, no-one can help me see where my reasoning is faulty. Please could someone put me on the right track? Thank you!

11th August 2017, 01:51 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	Johan, a keris blade is made by forge welding a piece of steel between two pieces of pamor material that has been made by forge welding iron and a contrasting material. If the forging is well made and then well carved, the edge of the steel core projects beyond the pamor material around all the edges of the blade. The diagram that Detlef has drawn shows the steel core where it has emerged from the pamor and now forms the edge of the blade. The blade is in fact a laminated sandwich, pamor on the faces of the blade, steel core running through the centre of the blade and forming the cutting edges.

11th August 2017, 03:50 PM	#7
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Yes, Sajen, thank you for indicating it, and this is what I expect to see, and it is clear on the blade that Gustav has presented. And it is a nice illustration of what Alan is describing. But I have been referring to Bejo's blade all along, specifically the excellent 3rd picture from the top on Bejo's post #3. I'm looking for that same edge showing the steel, but I do not find it at all.