Jineta/nimcha/kattara

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Ahhhh! The typical colonial discourse…the civilizing role of Europe into the rest of the (colonized) worl...And today, even the colonial notions about an Indo-Aryan “conquest” are deeply questioned, the idea of the “heroic white people” taking control of Europe in a great epic saga, ahhhh, a beautiful story...

Sostenga sus caballos, Gonzalo
The issue here is not such passionate angle of political influences, even if ancestral ones but, instead, questioning the plausibility of authors (and collectors and others) statements on determined swords provenances and their influence in shape throughout ages and peoples.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... We have seen that the quillons turned toward the blade is a centuries old use among the Oriental peoples, and that the strongly downcurved quillons were used first (before the Portuguese or the Spanish peoples) by the Berbers, at least from the 13th Century, if not before...

So true ... this not meaning that another people other than the one who first put up an implement, may adopt it, strictly or modified, and take it somewhere else, causing a new wave of influence. There even are records of such happenings, namely the case of ship cannon port holes, breech loading 'berços' cast system and other stuff ... what do i know?.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

And why the falcata is a Lusitania sword?...

And why need to ask ? We all know that such attribution is not correct; only in strict terms, that not in the ample reach of geographich context.
I just wonder how the author of such statement isn't also aware of that. But if he was, we wouldn't be here analizing such implausibilty ... although not one of the more screaming.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... As far I know, it is a Celtic-Iberian weapon ...

Although not at all a scholar, i have had my dosis of search on the so called Falcata Iberica, called Machaera Hispania by the Romans (as cited by Homero), and potentially descendent of the Helenic Kopis.
By the away, you are surely aware that the name Falcata was ony attributed in the XIX century. What it is not known, according to experts, is how Lusitanians called this sword... but this doesn't mean that they didn't used it. On the contrary, if Celtiberians made them (or copied them), we may realize that they passed on to their following breeds. It is not because early examples were recently found that original models didn't have their inheritance and evolution throughout time.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... and the notion of “Portugal” or “Spain” did not exist in that time...

But 'soon' came the concept of Roman "Hispania", as they called the whole Peninsula; Portugal came much later indeed.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Numerous findings of falcatas with horse-head hilts were also made in the actual territory of Spain...

Horse head, bird head, undetermined grip, 'rectangular' grip without head ... Not only in Spain but in the whole Peninsula; there are currently dozens of sites with an excavated panoplia of these weapons and their paralel tipologies; i have seen (and saved) papers with enlightening charts.
... And i happen to have been offered a catalogue of a collection auctioned in 2003 with an outstanding set of these swords in exceptional conditions.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...In the 16th Century those swords were buried for more than 1,300 years, and the Portuguese even didn´t know them, maybe until the 19th or 20th Century, when archaeological discoveries bring them to the modern knowledge.

The mentioned term was Lusitanian, not Portuguese... which makes a difference .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...This quote seems Portuguese-biased, who is the author? I have seem similar statements in Portuguese web sites. Very nationalistic...

There you go again. The author is not even Portuguese ...although he belongs in a family that has been in Portugal for almost three centuries. He certainly exacerbates on the Portuguese theme; but let it be his problem; we don't have to buy it, though.
Nevertheless this Gentleman holds in fact one of the largest collections of early weapons and tons of documentation mainly directed to the Indian route and discoveries period.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... And why the knuckleguard would be influence of the Portuguese? Contrary to the Spanish, they didn’t have presence in North Africa. In the 16th Century the Portuguese invasions to Morocco were defeated repeatedly by the Saadis, which also defeated the Ottoman intents.

A fair point of view but, still only in the coast, as anyway Portuguese never had enough military contingents to impose presence in the interior, either in Africa or elsewhere, they built and inhabited fortifications in over half dozen spots in the Moroccan coast during some three centuries, which in any case is also a presence; enough for both cultures ending up 'contaminating' eachother ... at least potentially; one has to go out to the village for groceries and bring with him some local gadgets ... or eventually engage in battle and capture or let capture one or two weapons. Isn't that also how these things happen ? .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... At the end of the 16th Century, Portugal became a Spanish dominion.

... Which ended mid XVII century. But that was more of a monarchic issue; i don't think the Spaniards came over en masse. Notwithstanding cultural exhange already existed ... except for navigation and discoveries classified information, as often mentioned in chronicles .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...I lack of bibliography on Portuguese swords. I would like to see those with knuckleguards from the first half of the 16th Century, could you provide some examples?

Apart from the book i have been quoting, HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, which is not only about such swords, and with all possible tagging implausibilities, i only know of another one called AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES by Eduardo Nobre, where also attributions may be discussable, on what touches the origin of swords being either Portuguese or Spanish; a common imprecision due to both countries interculture, namely or specially on what touches these weapons. That's why some authors prefer to attribute these swords the title of Iberian.
If you browse the search button of the forum under AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES it could be that you find a few pictures i posted of Eduardo Nobre's collection with contextual detail references.
... Plus the details i have already passed you on my half dozen examples. Did i also pass you their pictures ?


.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

The issue here is not such passionate angle of political influences, even if ancestral ones but, instead, questioning the plausibility of authors (and collectors and others) statements on determined swords provenances and their influence in shape throughout ages and peoples.

Only wanted to expose the motive behind the attributions, as not beign technical or objetive.

Originally Posted by fernando

So true ... this not meaning that another people other than the one who first put up an implement, may adopt it, strictly or modified, and take it somewhere else, causing a new wave of influence. There even are records of such happenings, namely the case of ship cannon port holes, breech loading 'berços' cast system and other stuff ... what do i know?.

That is correct. It is what I have been saying about this evolution.

Originally Posted by fernando

Although not at all a scholar, i have had my dosis of search on the so called Falcata Iberica, called Machaera Hispania by the Romans (as cited by Homero), and potentially descendent of the Helenic Kopis.
By the away, you are surely aware that the name Falcata was ony attributed in the XIX century. What it is not known, according to experts, is how Lusitanians called this sword... but this doesn't mean that they didn't used it. On the contrary, if Celtiberians made them (or copied them), we may realize that they passed on to their following breeds. It is not because early examples were recently found that original models didn't have their inheritance and evolution throughout time.

Agree. M. Fulgosio invented the name in 1872. Of course, also Lusitanians used the falcata. Though I am more adept to the explanation about their origin given by Fernando Quesada Sanz in his book on the subject. I personally don't believe in the Greek origin.

Originally Posted by fernando

But 'soon' came the concept of Roman "Hispania", as they called the whole Peninsula; Portugal came much later indeed.

What I meant is that the modern notions of nation-state or country are a recent invention, and we can not circumscribe many phenomena exclusively to a single specific country because they ocurred on an area actually occupied for more than one country. I know that in many ways the Portuguese and the Spanish are literally brothers sharing a common culture.

Originally Posted by fernando

Horse head, bird head, undetermined grip, 'rectangular' grip without head ... Not only in Spain but in the whole Peninsula; there are currently dozens of sites with an excavated panoplia of these weapons and their paralel tipologies; i have seen (and saved) papers with enlightening charts.
... And i happen to have been offered a catalogue of a collection auctioned in 2003 with an outstanding set of these swords in exceptional conditions.

I am happy for you!!! I never thought that you were ignorant on this matter, neither tried to imply it. If I gave you this impression, please accept my apologies.
I only have the book from Quesada and some articles. You should share!!

Originally Posted by fernando

The mentioned term was Lusitanian, not Portuguese... which makes a difference .

What I meant is not that the Lusitanians didn't use or had knowledge of the falcatas, but that the Portuguese in the 16th Century didn't even know the falcatas, since they were buried for more than 1,300 years. So, how it was possible that the hilt features of the falcatas were passed by the Portuguese to North Africa in the 16th Century or the 17th-18th Century!!!

Originally Posted by fernando

There you go again. The author is not even Portuguese ...although he belongs in a family that has been in Portugal for almost three centuries. He certainly exacerbates on the Portuguese theme; but let it be his problem; we don't have to buy it, though.
Nevertheless this Gentleman holds in fact one of the largest collections of early weapons and tons of documentation mainly directed to the Indian route and discoveries period.

The bias is obvious. For the sake of objetive knowledge, any bias should be placed in evidence. It is part of a search for a truer knowledge. I am aware of the contributions of people who has preserved weapons and documents, but their explanations should be reexamined under the light of new discoveries, studies and a more scientific approach. As our own explanations. I constantly modify my own points of view, as I learn more. And I have so much to learn!!!

Originally Posted by fernando

A fair point of view but, still only in the coast, as anyway Portuguese never had enough military contingents to impose presence in the interior, either in Africa or elsewhere, they built and inhabited fortifications in over half dozen spots in the Moroccan coast during some three centuries, which in any case is also a presence; enough for both cultures ending up 'contaminating' eachother ... at least potentially; one has to go out to the village for groceries and bring with him some local gadgets ... or eventually engage in battle and capture or let capture one or two weapons. Isn't that also how these things happen?

It could be. Possibly, but not probably, since other factors and the cultural background in Africa makes more probably the other explanation.

Originally Posted by fernando

... Which ended mid XVII century. But that was more of a monarchic issue; i don't think the Spaniards came over en masse. Notwithstanding cultural exhange already existed ... except for navigation and discoveries classified information, as often mentioned in chronicles.

Agreed. But the Spanish had a greater presence in that area, thus making more probable the influences passing through them. Instead, the Portuguese had greater presence in more suthern parts of West Africa, the Indian Ocean, India and Indonesia. They were by far greater navigators than the Spaniards.

Originally Posted by fernando

Apart from the book i have been quoting, HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, which is not only about such swords, and with all possible tagging implausibilities, i only know of another one called AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES by Eduardo Nobre, where also attributions may be discussable, on what touches the origin of swords being either Portuguese or Spanish; a common imprecision due to both countries interculture, namely or specially on what touches these weapons. That's why some authors prefer to attribute these swords the title of Iberian.
If you browse the search button of the forum under AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES it could be that you find a few pictures i posted of Eduardo Nobre's collection with contextual detail references.
... Plus the details i have already passed you on my half dozen examples. Did i also pass you their pictures ?

Thank you for the references. I have Hombres, Espadas y Tomates (only text, no images), but not the other book. As you know, I was absent from the forum and many interesting threads are unknown to me. I will search inmediately. But of what pictures are you talking about? Do you mean the photos from the book above and from Antonio's Page?

Un abrazo

[Gonzalo G]

Details from photos of paintings of Nuno Gonçalves (court Portuguese painter, 15th Century). The swords seem more akin to the Spanish ones. I wonder if the black sword, more differentiated, was exclusive of the colonial enterprise. Or if the differences were because one was a dressing sword and the other a fighting sword, or just because one evolved in time into the other. The details come from the portrait of Saint Paul and the Saint Vincent Panels:

[Gonzalo G]

Another detail:

[Gonzalo G]

But now, this more military-style men carry the more classic black swords (same panel):

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Details from photos of paintings of Nuno Gonçalves (court Portuguese painter, 15th Century). The swords seem more akin to the Spanish ones. I wonder if the black sword, more differentiated, was exclusive of the colonial enterprise. Or if the differences were because one was a dressing sword and the other a fighting sword, or just because one evolved in time into the other. The details come from the portrait of Saint Paul and the Saint Vincent Panels:

I have been through this one in the forum; a good realistic evidence on the period swords. Actually i have a set of bronze medals representing this six panel set. But ... sorry my curiosty ... why do you keep calling them black swords ? That was an episode occurred on a particular shipment context; not the typologic name of these swords; unless i am missing something...

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

I have been through this one in the forum; a good realistic evidence on the period swords. Actually i have a set of bronze medals representing this six panel set. But ... sorry my curiosty ... why do you keep calling them black swords ? That was an episode occurred on a particular shipment context; not the typologic name of these swords;

Which is?

Now, since I wouldn't like to make frivolous divagations (too busy with my readings), I will not insist on this subject and just ask you to compare the swords by Nuno Gonçalves from those represented in the "Santo Domingo de Silos" by Bartolomé Bermejo, 15th Century. Left panel, upper image. It is in the opposite side of the Iberic Peninsula, the Kingdom of Aragón:


Santo Domingo de Silos

Regards

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Which is? ... since I wouldn't like to make frivolous divagations (too busy with my readings), I will not insist on this subject and just ask you to compare the swords by Nuno Gonçalves from those represented in the "Santo Domingo de Silos" by Bartolomé Bermejo, 15th Century..

I wouldn't know if they ought to have a type 'name', other than a tipology type, but certainly not, as i know of, such allegorical 'black sword' one in that context; surely not 'frivolous divagation' swords, in any case .
What is there to compare ... what is obvious ? Portuguese, Spanish, Iberian, even Venetian.
On the other hand, it is amazing how the artist could envisage Saint Paul with a navigator sword .
I remember having been here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=panels

BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path .


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't know if they ought to have a type 'name', other than a tipology type, but certainly not, as i know of, such allegorical 'black sword' one in that context; surely not 'frivolous divagation' swords, in any case .
What is there to compare ... what is obvious ? Portuguese, Spanish, Iberian, even Venetian.
On the other hand, it is amazing how the artist could envisage Saint Paul with a navigator sword .
I remember having been here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=panels

BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path .
.

On seeing your library reference~ Without doubt some of the best artwork presented on this Forum and looking at the original thread I don't understand why it didn't go on to be a blockbuster in this regard. These early artworks are a beacon of light. I noted how the late Matchlock, Michael(RIP) admired such illustrations.

In these Iberian ...and in fact Mediterranean forms there is clear and undisputed free association of design although it is difficult to nail down a specific date where one form flows into the next. I wondered if the Jewish expulsion question from Spain can be viewed in explaining the redistribution of sword makers around the region may be part of the equation. In 1492 when the great expulsion took place see http://www.sephardicstudies.org/1492account.html where it states that most were artisans and for example the King of Turkey welcomed those that made it...as he was aware of their expertise... at making arms. Thus it was that these peoples were spread around and must have gone where their specialty was best received ... It is suggested that weapon spread of design and style must have featured highly in their technique thus diffusion of design probably took place widely.

To me two countries (but not only two) in particular are responsible for the world wide spread of sword variants... Spain and Portugal ... The Papal act Treaty_of_Tordesillas 1494 and closely related treaties to 1530 and onwards which split the Atlantic between the two must be instrumental in farming out the potential for spreading form from each source. (But not only that factor)

In fact this didn't altogether prevent each country from doing a little trespassing... and ships going the long way round and via Acapulco soon found the short way home via the Indian Ocean.

In effect hardly any country took a blind bit of notice of this treaty and it could be argued that it simply heated up the race for territorial expansion all around. In itself this comes as another factor in sword design copy and transfer..Interesting.

The thread is a good one although I repeat that insofar-as the header...Jineta/nimcha/kattara is concerned Jinetta and Nimcha are related and relatable but the third is not; Kattara has nothing to do with either.

The Papal act dividing up the world can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

and below an idea of the sea chart supporting it.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

... BTW ... perhaps is time to pack bags and leave this thread follow its original path . .

It is true that this thread was launched in 2008; it continued with its original topic being discussed untill 2011; and then it went frozen untill now. Perhaps it is no crime to give it a new stretch, even admiting that the intrinsic sense of the original topic may expand to a determined liberty ... which we may baptize as "side topic" material.

I will start by uploading pictures of the falcatas from that catalogue i have previously mentioned (and as already requested by Gonzalo) and later will add to this post some considerations introduced in such catalogue, about the Weapons of the Iberian Iron Age, written by authors other than those quoted by Gonzalo, but which approach, even admitedly outdated, seems to be worth to consider.
In a next post, i will upload further pictures of the same catalogue, in order to help me raise some empirical crazy questions about the turned quillon saga.


.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Agree. M. Fulgosio invented the name in 1872. Of course, also Lusitanians used the falcata. Though I am more adept to the explanation about their origin given by Fernando Quesada Sanz in his book on the subject. I personally don't believe in the Greek origin...

This article i have by Leandro Saudan Tristão is largely supported by Quesada Sainz works. I have not read of any evidence other than that of his Greek origin theory. He is so keen in illustrating Greeks handling Kopides and mentioning their introduction in the Iberian Peninsula (V AC), brought by mercenaries who have participated in the Sicilian wars. But of course i don't make a case, my knowledge is residual.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... I never thought that you were ignorant on this matter, neither tried to imply it. If I gave you this impression, please accept my apologies.

No, you didn't imply a thing; in any case i am infinitely far from having your luggage.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... I only have the book from Quesada and some articles. You should share!!...

Try https://run.unl.pt/bitstream/10362/7...insular%20.pdf.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... So, how it was possible that the hilt features of the falcatas were passed by the Portuguese to North Africa in the 16th Century or the 17th-18th ...

Oh ...did i say that ?

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...Instead, the Portuguese had greater presence in more suthern parts of West Africa, the Indian Ocean, India and Indonesia. They were by far greater navigators than the Spaniards...

If i agree with that, i will be accused of nationalism .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I have Hombres, Espadas y Tomates (only text, no images) ...

So you don't have the book; apart from all fantasy contained in the tales and doubts on weapon's attributions, it is an excelent work.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... But of what pictures are you talking about?...

Pictures i post now and then in context with topics. Just patiently browse on the book i mentioned or on his author's name, Antonio Nobre; this is one of such threads:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=eduardo+nobre.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Do you mean the photos from the book above and from Antonio's Page?...

I don't recall which swords Antonio had in his page; maybe some are similar (not the same) but, as far as remember, there was no detail on the pictures.


.HEREHERE HEREHERE

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

This article i have by Leandro Saudan Tristão is largely supported by Quesada Sainz works. I have not read of any evidence other than that of his Greek origin theory. He is so keen in illustrating Greeks handling Kopides and mentioning their introduction in the Iberian Peninsula (V AC), brought by mercenaries who have participated in the Sicilian wars.

Quesada mention another origin, based on a Italian-Mediterranean model, anthough he analyses the Greek hypothesis. Please see Fernando Quesada Sanz, Arma y Símbolo: La Falcata Ibérica, Instituto Alicantino de Cultura Juan Gil-Albert, España, 1992. I have only a photocopy that a friend from Spain sent me. You can also download this two pdf's by Quesada Sanz:

En Torno al Orígen y Procedencia de la Falcata Ibérica

Máchaira, Kopis, Falcata

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh ...did i say that ?

No, you didn't. The author you quoted did, or at least, implied it.

Originally Posted by fernando

If i agree with that, i will be accused of nationalism .

Without any reason. It is well known that the mayor sea explorations of the Spaniards were actually carried by Genoese and Portuguese capitains, re: Colón and Fernão de Magalhães. And Magalhães made the first trip around the whole world, despite the mutinous Spaniards, who were afraid. Just as with Colón. To be more precise Elcano had to finish the exploration, since Magalhães died, but the voyage was his.

Originally Posted by fernando

So you don't have the book; apart from all fantasy contained in the tales and doubts on weapon's attributions, it is an excelent work.

That is correct, I don't have it. During my Internet black-out I lost the opportunity to download several books...as Oswaldo Lamartine's.

Originally Posted by fernando

I don't recall which swords Antonio had in his page; maybe some are similar (not the same) but, as far as remember, there was no detail on the pictures.

Discoveries Swords

And thank you very much for your link. A succulent text.

Regards

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...Quesada mention another origin, based on a Italian-Mediterranean model, anthough he analyses the Greek hypothesis...

Thank you for the links; not able to open either... yet.
I confess that, reading this document i posted and the fraction i uploaded with a ceramic work in which Greeks are rehearsing an atack with swords visibly the type of the Kopides, my non scholar interest was satisfied. Needless to say that the Helenic origin theory is also embraced by other sources; i don't know if inspired by Quesada Sanz. In any case and quoting again the work i linked, we may read that Sanz mentions also as origin Souhern Albania and the Etruscan lands, here spotted a century later. Whether this type of weapon originated in Northern Greece and travelled to those other places, after all no so distant from eachother, is a riddle i will leave for academics endeavour.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... It is well known that the mayor sea explorations of the Spaniards were actually carried by Genoese and Portuguese capitains, re: Colón and Fernão de Magalhães. And Magalhães made the first trip around the whole world, despite the mutinous Spaniards, who were afraid. Just as with Colón. To be more precise Elcano had to finish the exploration, since Magalhães died, but the voyage was his...

I could add here a couple commas but, this would be a subject for a different thread.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...That is correct, I don't have it. During my Internet black-out I lost the opportunity to download several books...as Oswaldo Lamartine's.

I don't think HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES is downloadable. Antonio must have scanned the examples you link from the book itself, as i deed ... and actually they are the same i posted above.
I was referring to another link where he shows a row of Portuguese weapons. Also in his web page he has/had an article on his visit to Rainer Dahehnartd's house (much before i did), where he photographed one or two other swords; a different context.