Jineta/nimcha/kattara

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah ... you raise this question to the author i have being quoting and he will immediately state that, the downturned quillons in the Kastane were brought to Ceilão by the Portuguese and, as the locals didn't resource to Portuguese fencing style, those quillons in Kastanes soon became 'atrophied'.


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But they aren't Quilons per se. These come from the Vajra format in the religion of the region... Probably Tibetan origin. Pre 5th C. AD
I would further suggest that the Kastane became a court sword and transitioned before that as a secretaries sword in the equivalent of the civil service but that in the Portuguese era another form may have existed...similar to the stone carved example below, lying on the ground, bearing in mind that differences in the guard may be the result of it having been made by a Portuguese stone mason.... so it may be slightly wrong...however, it seems the blade is a battle field one; and the rest of the carving is accurate. Not the flimsy blade seen on Kastane afterwards. I could go on to suggest that the early battlefield Kastane may not have had quilons at all; like the weapon below in stone. It has a straight guard. No quilons.

By the way the sword you have ringed above is in the Japanese Museum and was purchased as a gift by Hasekura in the Philipines. In my view that hilt is a Storta as well... hardly surprising since Iberian shipping was in the region full time and in huge numbers thus a Storta or two would certainly have been on board some of them so cross hilting could certainly have occured. That blade seems to me to be a Battlefield blade as well.

Would it not be more plausible to suggest that the sword shown from your author of the broad curved paddle style blade at #52 may have gone into the Indian Ocean ( on board a Portuguese Battleship) as a Portuguese/Benin weapon and came out in the same format unchanged and actually with no link with the Kastane?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

...Would it not be more plausible to suggest that the sword shown from your author of the broad curved paddle style blade at #52 may have gone into the Indian Ocean ( on board a Portuguese Battleship) as a Portuguese/Benin weapon and came out in the same format unchanged and actually with no link with the Kastane?

I don't think i (after the author) said the Benin sword has anything to do with the Kastane. It would be more plausible to assume that, while the Portuguese wandered around Benin lands, they brought this sword directly to their homeland. ... don't ask me how they have acquired it.
It was in a different approach that i mentioned his statement that the down curved arms in the Kastane were of Portuguese influence, this obviously not referring to the whole sword. Actually, in the various pictures he shows of these swords from his collection in his book, he always tags them as Cingalese. But it is equally true his statement that also their ricasso shows Portuguese influence ... for what is worth.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

...similar to the stone carved example below, lying on the ground, bearing in mind that differences in the guard may be the result of it having been made by a Portuguese stone mason.... so it may be slightly wrong...however, it seems the blade is a battle field one; and the rest of the carving is accurate.... It has a straight guard. No quilons....

It all appoints to my eyes that, Captain (Pinhão?) is holding a military Portuguese sword. Some 'hollow' in the upper section of the guard in the faded carving (or picture), impedes to even guess it is a military cup hilted one.


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[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

It all appoints to my eyes that, Captain (Pinhão?) is holding a military Portuguese sword. Some 'hollow' in the upper section of the guard in the faded carving (or picture), impeaches to even guess it is a military cup hilted one.

Yes indeed however the sword I bring notice to is lying on the ground straddled by the Portuguese Officer but I welcome your remark upon the Portuguese weapon. Regarding the other sword ...on the ground... which is I suggest the battle version of the KASTANE though without quilons and with a straight guard and no knuckleguard ; a few points.

My question to you is why would a battlefield weapon, then, have the style of quilon seen in later Kastane? ...Swords which were clearly weak bladed and which had no fighting practicality but were in fact badge of office tokens... or Icons awash with Buddhist designs..

Surely a religious Icon like the hilt, the peacock tail rain-guard, the other zoomorphic creatures and the very important religious architecture of the misnomered "quilons" or thunderbolts..."the Vajra" ...be placed on a battlesword when they were so revered in Buddhism from the very beginning... The Great Buddha himself carried the Vajra to Tibet; It would not be placed on a blade...on a battlesword... Thus I point to the Kastane Quilons in the bling badge of office version as misplaced and misnamed by European experts ...but very real as religious architecture.

To be precise I would have to show an earlier Tibettan sword with Vajra Quilon architecture illustrating my point.

For that I refer to the Boston Museum of Fine Art for the 14th Century Khadya Tibetto-Chinese sword with Vajra styled Quilons acting as they are designed ... as thunderbolts ...and in the pure sense as religious Icons.

Please see http://sword-site.com/thread/1018/tibetan-sword-khadya

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...680#post218680 where I have updated details in that thread and for comments.

and below with a reminder of the Vajra cutting device added;

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

...Yes indeed however the sword I bring notice to is lying on the ground straddled by the Portuguese Officer but I welcome your remark upon the Portuguese weapon...

My bad. Up to now i never focused on the swords of this carving as the other time we discussed it was to try and dechipher the text it contains, with an unsuccessful result, though. As for the sword on the ground, i wouldn't know what it is; although i would venture what it is not; a Kastane ... and neither the often cited (in Portuguese chronicles) Calachurro, that used by Lascarins with a length visibly shorter than the one depicted. Bt let me no decisive on the subject,