Jineta/nimcha/kattara

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th July 2017, 12:29 AM

Salaams Gonzalo ! What a brilliant sequence of posts. It may take me some time to fully arrange in my mind the references but some I know and the others I will find. I find all what you write most compelling. There is surely a mirroring of Umayyid (or at least early Islamic battle sword themes) reflected in these weapons although the date span is somewhat later since the 13th C was when they appeared with the Berber tribes and the conquest of the Iberian peninsular.

Looping the index finger is interesting as it gives more control and pushes up the power in the favoured down strike of this cutting weapon and must also have added to power in thrusting.

I have little to add at this point~ though checking back I note one of the write ups I placed would look better in full thus I set out below the complete description from https://www.worthpoint.com/worthope...-denix-20531549
somewhat tidied up, viz;

Quote"JINETA SWORDS

Jineta (or Gineta) swords are the most direct, fair and rich inheritance of the hispano-arab panoply. The name origin comes from the Cronicles of Alphonso X which tells us about a berber tribe of the Benimerines also known as Zenetes who moved into the Iberic penninsula during the XIII century to fight at the service of Mohammed I of Granada, and brought with them this type of weapon, with a shorter and lighter blade but still as wide and with as great a quality of steel as swords used by Christian forces of the time.

Due to their quality and scarcity (nowadays hardly a dozen of these swords survive) the Jinetas are universally considered and admired. Besides a few now within private collections and worldwide museums, in Spain only three museums are fortunate enough to treasure some examples; the San Telmo Municipal Museum (Picture 9) in San Sebastian, Basque Country, The Army Museum (Museo del Ejercito)(Picture 10); and the National Archeological Museum (Museo Arqueologico Nacional)(Picture11) in Madrid.

Jineta swords are characteristic weapons of the Nazari period in Granada with no known north-African or middle eastern precendents which confers the a somewhat unclear origin. The are characterized by a double edge straight, light-weight and not so wide and medium length blade. Their most significant feature and what makes them stand upon their individuality are their hilts; in general magnificently decorated which has brought the arguable statement that most of the presently preserved Jinetas could have been designed as parade, dress or ceremonial swords.

In general the Jineta hilt consists of a extremely curved guard, in the horse shoe shape with the quillons pointed towards the blade, embracing the ricasso and decorated in the shape of animal heads or with filigree. the handle takes in general fusiform and the pommel is usually spherical or discoidal with a long, prominent and pointy top button. The scabbards are made of wood covered in leather with metallic fittings and usually showing two hanging rings to clip to a baldric or belt hangers. Pictorial depictions in paintings from Alhambra show the sword carried on baldrics over the shoulder in most cases. Both the scabbard neck fittings and the hilts usually match their decorations and motifs which, with the sword sheathed exhibit a design continuation and in some way masks the union between both pieces.

The materials used in decorating hilts and scabbards are plentiful in golden bronze, silver, gold filigrees, incrustations, gem stones, enamels, etc, which make these pieces astonishing and lavish sets of design and decoration. Many have gold, silver and enameled engravings, inlays and incrustations with verses of the Quran and praises to Allah and Mohammed.

Those who possessed these highly decorated Jinetas belonged to a high social status and was considered a symbol only achievable by high ranking officials, sultans and Arab Emirs. Christians were only allowed to carry Jinetas if received as a gift of some Emir or Muslim king or another very important person. But then in the XV century, while Granada was still in under Muslim rule, Jinetas began to appear among Christian soldiers either obtained as military trophies or acquired in Toledo where smiths began to copy the Muslim model of these swords after the battle of Elvira in 1431.

It is probable that the ones used for battle were not as decorated as the ones we are still able to appreciate in museums and private collections, however it is uncertain as none of the undecorated examples have survived up to our times.

As stated, quite few examples of Jineta swords have survived the scourge of time. One is kept in the National Library in Paris, obtained by french Napoleonic forces in Granada at the beginning of XIX century. One more is held at the Municipal Museum of the city of Kassel in Germany. One other is exhibited at the New York Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the surviving Jinetas are however kept in Spain and constitute some of their most priced treasures."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Gonzalo G · 28th July 2017, 03:54 AM

Ibrahiim, that description corresponds with the dressing sword of the Nasrid nobility. It was influenced by the original fighting jineta sword but they are not equal, as I said before, though they are also called "jineta". Practically there are fewer specimens of the last, since the those swords preserved were trophies from the defeated nobility, of great value and exotism by their ornamentation, but you could hardly think the Zenete Berber mass of soldiers carried the same kind of hilts, and also there is the subject of the form of the blade. The problem with the preserved Christian swords from the period, is that they are also swords used by the nobility, and as I can recall, even with Moorish blades. We have to see what kind of swords used the common cavalryman. I believe that the tendency goes to more tapered blades and hilts evolved from the Zenete fighting sword, or shorter broadswords instead, compared with those used by the rest of Christendom, in order to lighten the blade. The form of the pommel was not important, since this form was decorative and what mattered was its weight. But the quillons did matter, since they were part of a fencing technique.
Regards

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th July 2017, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Ibrahiim, that description corresponds with the dressing sword of the Nasrid nobility. It was influenced by the original fighting jineta sword but they are not equal, as I said before, though they are also called "jineta". Practically there are fewer specimens of the last, since the those swords preserved were trophies from the defeated nobility, of great value and exotism by their ornamentation, but you could hardly think the Zenete Berber mass of soldiers carried the same kind of hilts, and also there is the subject of the form of the blade. The problem with the preserved Christian swords from the period, is that they are also swords used by the nobility, and as I can recall, even with Moorish blades. We have to see what kind of swords used the common cavalryman. I believe that the tendency goes to more tapered blades and hilts evolved from the Zenete fighting sword, or shorter broadswords instead, compared with those used by the rest of Christendom, in order to lighten the blade. The form of the pommel was not important, since this form was decorative and what mattered was its weight. But the quillons did matter, since they were part of a fencing technique.
Regards

Yes but I did say that it would take me a while to catch up... and you are a bout 6 posts in front...

Yes of course ... we have here almost two swords... One is the Jundee Sword of the common soldier and the other is the VIP Version covered in Bling ! One could simply apply the word Hybrid and it would perhaps suffice in describing the non combat richly ornate VIP item... Thus we almost by inference identify the sword at #34 which I think is the same sword I placed at #27 as~

1 - Sword found in Sangueza: pommel is missing (XIIIth century ?, probably the oldest known) and so far as I can deduce the only old style form.

So here is the sword we may begin to compare with other Islamic weapons.

From this weapon it can be seen how artisans produced the VIP versions seen in Museums and all over this thread.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th July 2017, 06:41 AM

Turned Down Quilon examples. Some are of a style I would say was revivalist seen in some turned down quilons in Indian forms...others beg the question how did this develop such as in the Nimcha style of Morocco. The big group of swords are Swords of The Prophet often worked several hundred years later in gold calligraphy and highly ornate... some quilons straight others turned down.

Of all the questions I am interested in is the relationship with Nimcha ...thus please see my next post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th July 2017, 07:11 AM

My question about these Jinetta and taking the original form ...How did the Jinetta pass the idea of form and style to the Moroccan Nimcha other than with the Baldric (clearly illustrated below).

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th July 2017, 08:47 AM

Gonzalo G · 28th July 2017, 09:43 AM

The baldric has nothing to do, since it was the traditional way of the muslims to carry the sword.

And I didn't say anywhere that the nimcha evolved from the jineta. Please read more carefully and don't place one sword at the side of the other. What I said is that the cultural elements behind the design of the hilt of the nimcha were already present in North Africa long time ago (before its appearance), and more probably this design owes nothing to influences from Italy or France. The severe downturning of the quillons with wider "roundish" knobs is an element. The other element is the development of the finger guards (which in the nimcha are vestigial), and that this development, as also that of the pas-d'ane, is due to the influence from the fighting jineta sword. Please read Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer, "From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier" in Gladius, Vol. II, 1963, especially pages 30 to 34, the downloading is free.

I will remark that the influences on the development of the curved quillons with ring guards, pas-d’anes and the “Italian grip”, in fact does not from Europe to North Africa. It is exactly the opposite. Let´s read what Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer writes in other work:

“When the Damascus Caliphate parts in an Eastern and a Western Caliphate with centres in Baghdad and in Cordoba, the Oriental line becomes reinforced on the Iberian peninsula, When some centuries later new Berber tribes are crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, particularly the Benu Marin tribes in the 12th and 13th centuries, the Latin line gets a strong impulse, which gives birth to the so-called finger-bows, the pas-d'anes and the “Italian” method of grasping the sword handle. This new method is seen on the Iberian peninsula already in the 13th century, if not before!”
Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer, “Introduction to the History of the European Sword”, Gladius, Vol. I, 1961, pp.43-44.

It is also possible that the endings of the ring guards and quillon of the nimcha would be a vestigial presence of pitons. About this, and also about the influence from North Africa to Europe in the 15th Century, please read:

"From these swords with pas-d'ane below the quillons it is no long
step to the next protective measure, the two small pitons, iron tiges
ending in small knobs projecting from the lower ends of the pas-d'ane.
They were possibly inspired by the Moroccan swords of about the same period.

Sha said "possibly", so it is not a fact, but this testifies to the early presence of pitons in Moroccan swords before their presence in Europe. The other element is the knuckleguard. This element probably is the only one on the hilt of the nimcha which is due to the influence of Europe, most probably through Spain, since the Spaniards had permanent military presence in Oran during this period. I mentioned before that in an inventory in the Catálogo de la Real Armería in Madrid are described four sabers which seems to correspond to nimchas, sabers coming from Oran during the expedition of 1732, so we can presume that this type was already present, if not well before.

Thus, elements developed from the Berber swords were used later in the design of the characteristic nimcha hilt, named the strong downcurved quillon and the (vestigial) finger guards. Also, references from the 15th Century describe the presence of knob-pitons. Probably the first references we have from them mention the presence of a curved blade or a straight single-edge blade. This is not the same that saying that the jineta evolved into a nimcha. The jineta, in any case, evolved into a type of European sword, with some admixtures or changes. We can even say that those swords are a hybrid. But the cultural inheritance of this proces was also owned by western North Africa, it did not came from Europe, probably only the use of a knuckleguard.

28th July 2017, 06:41 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Turned Down Quilon examples. Some are of a style I would say was revivalist seen in some turned down quilons in Indian forms...others beg the question how did this develop such as in the Nimcha style of Morocco. The big group of swords are Swords of The Prophet often worked several hundred years later in gold calligraphy and highly ornate... some quilons straight others turned down. Of all the questions I am interested in is the relationship with Nimcha ...thus please see my next post. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th July 2017 at 07:04 AM.

28th July 2017, 07:11 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	My question about these Jinetta and taking the original form ...How did the Jinetta pass the idea of form and style to the Moroccan Nimcha other than with the Baldric (clearly illustrated below). Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

28th July 2017, 08:47 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th July 2017 at 10:39 AM.

28th July 2017, 12:29 AM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Gonzalo ! What a brilliant sequence of posts. It may take me some time to fully arrange in my mind the references but some I know and the others I will find. I find all what you write most compelling. There is surely a mirroring of Umayyid (or at least early Islamic battle sword themes) reflected in these weapons although the date span is somewhat later since the 13th C was when they appeared with the Berber tribes and the conquest of the Iberian peninsular. Looping the index finger is interesting as it gives more control and pushes up the power in the favoured down strike of this cutting weapon and must also have added to power in thrusting. I have little to add at this point~ though checking back I note one of the write ups I placed would look better in full thus I set out below the complete description from https://www.worthpoint.com/worthope...-denix-20531549 somewhat tidied up, viz; Quote"JINETA SWORDS Jineta (or Gineta) swords are the most direct, fair and rich inheritance of the hispano-arab panoply. The name origin comes from the Cronicles of Alphonso X which tells us about a berber tribe of the Benimerines also known as Zenetes who moved into the Iberic penninsula during the XIII century to fight at the service of Mohammed I of Granada, and brought with them this type of weapon, with a shorter and lighter blade but still as wide and with as great a quality of steel as swords used by Christian forces of the time. Due to their quality and scarcity (nowadays hardly a dozen of these swords survive) the Jinetas are universally considered and admired. Besides a few now within private collections and worldwide museums, in Spain only three museums are fortunate enough to treasure some examples; the San Telmo Municipal Museum (Picture 9) in San Sebastian, Basque Country, The Army Museum (Museo del Ejercito)(Picture 10); and the National Archeological Museum (Museo Arqueologico Nacional)(Picture11) in Madrid. Jineta swords are characteristic weapons of the Nazari period in Granada with no known north-African or middle eastern precendents which confers the a somewhat unclear origin. The are characterized by a double edge straight, light-weight and not so wide and medium length blade. Their most significant feature and what makes them stand upon their individuality are their hilts; in general magnificently decorated which has brought the arguable statement that most of the presently preserved Jinetas could have been designed as parade, dress or ceremonial swords. In general the Jineta hilt consists of a extremely curved guard, in the horse shoe shape with the quillons pointed towards the blade, embracing the ricasso and decorated in the shape of animal heads or with filigree. the handle takes in general fusiform and the pommel is usually spherical or discoidal with a long, prominent and pointy top button. The scabbards are made of wood covered in leather with metallic fittings and usually showing two hanging rings to clip to a baldric or belt hangers. Pictorial depictions in paintings from Alhambra show the sword carried on baldrics over the shoulder in most cases. Both the scabbard neck fittings and the hilts usually match their decorations and motifs which, with the sword sheathed exhibit a design continuation and in some way masks the union between both pieces. The materials used in decorating hilts and scabbards are plentiful in golden bronze, silver, gold filigrees, incrustations, gem stones, enamels, etc, which make these pieces astonishing and lavish sets of design and decoration. Many have gold, silver and enameled engravings, inlays and incrustations with verses of the Quran and praises to Allah and Mohammed. Those who possessed these highly decorated Jinetas belonged to a high social status and was considered a symbol only achievable by high ranking officials, sultans and Arab Emirs. Christians were only allowed to carry Jinetas if received as a gift of some Emir or Muslim king or another very important person. But then in the XV century, while Granada was still in under Muslim rule, Jinetas began to appear among Christian soldiers either obtained as military trophies or acquired in Toledo where smiths began to copy the Muslim model of these swords after the battle of Elvira in 1431. It is probable that the ones used for battle were not as decorated as the ones we are still able to appreciate in museums and private collections, however it is uncertain as none of the undecorated examples have survived up to our times. As stated, quite few examples of Jineta swords have survived the scourge of time. One is kept in the National Library in Paris, obtained by french Napoleonic forces in Granada at the beginning of XIX century. One more is held at the Municipal Museum of the city of Kassel in Germany. One other is exhibited at the New York Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the surviving Jinetas are however kept in Spain and constitute some of their most priced treasures."Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

28th July 2017, 03:54 AM	#2
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Ibrahiim, that description corresponds with the dressing sword of the Nasrid nobility. It was influenced by the original fighting jineta sword but they are not equal, as I said before, though they are also called "jineta". Practically there are fewer specimens of the last, since the those swords preserved were trophies from the defeated nobility, of great value and exotism by their ornamentation, but you could hardly think the Zenete Berber mass of soldiers carried the same kind of hilts, and also there is the subject of the form of the blade. The problem with the preserved Christian swords from the period, is that they are also swords used by the nobility, and as I can recall, even with Moorish blades. We have to see what kind of swords used the common cavalryman. I believe that the tendency goes to more tapered blades and hilts evolved from the Zenete fighting sword, or shorter broadswords instead, compared with those used by the rest of Christendom, in order to lighten the blade. The form of the pommel was not important, since this form was decorative and what mattered was its weight. But the quillons did matter, since they were part of a fencing technique. Regards Last edited by Gonzalo G; 28th July 2017 at 04:59 AM.

28th July 2017, 09:43 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	The baldric has nothing to do, since it was the traditional way of the muslims to carry the sword. And I didn't say anywhere that the nimcha evolved from the jineta. Please read more carefully and don't place one sword at the side of the other. What I said is that the cultural elements behind the design of the hilt of the nimcha were already present in North Africa long time ago (before its appearance), and more probably this design owes nothing to influences from Italy or France. The severe downturning of the quillons with wider "roundish" knobs is an element. The other element is the development of the finger guards (which in the nimcha are vestigial), and that this development, as also that of the pas-d'ane, is due to the influence from the fighting jineta sword. Please read Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer, "From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier" in Gladius, Vol. II, 1963, especially pages 30 to 34, the downloading is free. I will remark that the influences on the development of the curved quillons with ring guards, pas-d’anes and the “Italian grip”, in fact does not from Europe to North Africa. It is exactly the opposite. Let´s read what Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer writes in other work: “When the Damascus Caliphate parts in an Eastern and a Western Caliphate with centres in Baghdad and in Cordoba, the Oriental line becomes reinforced on the Iberian peninsula, When some centuries later new Berber tribes are crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, particularly the Benu Marin tribes in the 12th and 13th centuries, the Latin line gets a strong impulse, which gives birth to the so-called finger-bows, the pas-d'anes and the “Italian” method of grasping the sword handle. This new method is seen on the Iberian peninsula already in the 13th century, if not before!” Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer, “Introduction to the History of the European Sword”, Gladius, Vol. I, 1961, pp.43-44. It is also possible that the endings of the ring guards and quillon of the nimcha would be a vestigial presence of pitons. About this, and also about the influence from North Africa to Europe in the 15th Century, please read: "From these swords with pas-d'ane below the quillons it is no long step to the next protective measure, the two small pitons, iron tiges ending in small knobs projecting from the lower ends of the pas-d'ane. They were possibly inspired by the Moroccan swords of about the same period. Sha said "possibly", so it is not a fact, but this testifies to the early presence of pitons in Moroccan swords before their presence in Europe. The other element is the knuckleguard. This element probably is the only one on the hilt of the nimcha which is due to the influence of Europe, most probably through Spain, since the Spaniards had permanent military presence in Oran during this period. I mentioned before that in an inventory in the Catálogo de la Real Armería in Madrid are described four sabers which seems to correspond to nimchas, sabers coming from Oran during the expedition of 1732, so we can presume that this type was already present, if not well before. Thus, elements developed from the Berber swords were used later in the design of the characteristic nimcha hilt, named the strong downcurved quillon and the (vestigial) finger guards. Also, references from the 15th Century describe the presence of knob-pitons. Probably the first references we have from them mention the presence of a curved blade or a straight single-edge blade. This is not the same that saying that the jineta evolved into a nimcha. The jineta, in any case, evolved into a type of European sword, with some admixtures or changes. We can even say that those swords are a hybrid. But the cultural inheritance of this proces was also owned by western North Africa, it did not came from Europe, probably only the use of a knuckleguard.