How to read a greneng

Johan van Zyl · 25th July 2017, 12:30 PM

I am very much intrigued by this thread. I've gone to my two krisses and inspected the grenengs minutely. My Javanese kris has two identical ron dhas, but the Bugis kris seems not to have even one.

I suppose the clarity/readability of the greneng message can get reduced by age & honest wear, just like a set of letters which have become worn.

Bjorn · 25th July 2017, 07:55 PM

Thank you for your informative reply, Alan. I'll have to spend some time on this to absorb it all.

I often wondered whether the ron dha in a greneng were supposed to be identical or not, because quite often they are not - even though on their individual merits they look to be aesthetically pleasing.

And I enjoyed learning how ron came to mean letter also.

Bjorn · 25th July 2017, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

I am very much intrigued by this thread. I've gone to my two krisses and inspected the grenengs minutely. My Javanese kris has two identical ron dhas, but the Bugis kris seems not to have even one.

I suppose the clarity/readability of the greneng message can get reduced by age & honest wear, just like a set of letters which have become worn.

Johan, also keep in mind what Alan wrote above: "When we move outside of Jawa we find that the greneng of keris from other areas is often just notches that have no meaning at all. Because of this, and for other reasons, many old-time traditionalists in Jawa would not recognise that these "keris" from other areas were in fact genuine keris, these other "keris" were merely keris-like objects that had been made by people who did not understand what a keris truly was, and the people who carried these keris were simply trying to copy their betters without understanding anything. They were in fact children who had not yet learnt anything."

The Bugis are an ethnic group from outside of Java and thus not made in accordance with the same rules and regulations. Actually, apart from Bali perhaps, I don't recall ever hearing that there are such rules and regulations in areas outside of Java.

A. G. Maisey · 25th July 2017, 10:58 PM

Bjorn, 'ron' doesn't actually mean 'letter', it infers 'letter', the word for 'letter' is 'aksara' in Old Javanese.

One of the characteristics of Javanese language, and I guess of all Javanese behaviour is that very often, most particularly with high status or polite language usage, is that what is said is indirect, which to a degree permits the recipient of a spoken or written message to understand that message in a way that is in accordance with his level of need, or of prior understanding.

This characteristic seems to have undergone development since the rise of the Second Kingdom of Mataram in the late 16th century, but it was probably always present in Javanese communication to some degree.

In respect of Bali and keris form, it is perhaps most useful not to think of Bali as a separate entity to Jawa, but as the "Far East" of Jawa. I personally think in terms of the Jawa-Bali nexus. The old East Javanese kingdoms had some rulers from Bali, and there had been a flow of people from Jawa into Bali for at least several hundred years before the final collapse of Mojopahit. There was some movement of people from Bali back to East Jawa also, but I rather suspect that the people who did move back to East Jawa were people who had Javanese roots, not the indigenous inhabitants of Bali.

Bali received the keris from East Jawa, and because of this, the form of the Balinese keris most closely echoes the form of the true keris of Mojopahit times. This is re-enforced by the fact that early Banten keris resemble in many ways the Balinese keris.

This is not because there was a direct exchange between these two widely separate places, but rather because after the collapse of Mojopahit there was migration, especially migration of craftsmen, from Mojopahit to West Jawa, as well as from Mojopahit to Bali.

Never forget that the people of the Archipelago did not ever regard water as a barrier, they thought of all water, both sea and rivers, as highways.

Johan van Zyl · 26th July 2017, 10:21 AM

Having read everything that was said above, I now come to a question I would like to ask. It is a question I would think somebody somewhere sometime in this forum would inevitably ask. Perhaps it has not been asked yet because it might be imprudent. Let me be impetuous and ask it in any case. I stand to learn by the answer.

It is this: Can we not take a single representative example of an existing, properly cut ancient Javanese greneng of which the interpretation is clear, or might have already been done, and demonstrate that reading here?

I realise the danger that if this is done, there might be individuals clamouring for their own kerisses' grenengs to be "read"! I myself won't be in that queue, however, because I believe that will be a ridiculous request.

But I ask the question concerning a single representative (Javanese) example, and I myself will be interested in this single demonstration greneng being interpreted.

(And for that matter, it relates very well with Bjorn's introductory post #1 above.)

A. G. Maisey · 26th July 2017, 01:07 PM

Johan, it is not possible to understand anything if that anything is taken out of context.

If we take a sentence from, let us say Shakespeare, is it possible to understand the message that the selected sentence carries, lacking the context of the play?

I suggest to you that it is totally impossible.

So it is with the keris and everything that pertains to it.

In any case, I have been pushing my own little barrow for more years than I can count, trying to get some people to try to understand just a little bit about what it is that they collect.

Very few people are prepared to make the effort to learn their ABC before they try to read "War & Peace".

There are no short cuts. We must put in the hard work first.

Regrettably.

When it comes to the keris in Jawa we need to put in a lot of what might seem like irrelevant effort before we can even begin to understand, then it becomes a matter of "understand what?" even if we understand the words, does that mean that we understand the message, or further, that we understand that message in context?

Collectors prefer to collect. Its what they do. Their interest is in the physical.

I am now 76 years old. I have had an interest in the keris for more than 60 years. For the last almost 50 years I have actively studied the keris. I probably will not live very much longer, and I will die knowing very, very little about the keris.

Here is a beginning for you:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE4.html

Johan van Zyl · 27th July 2017, 09:47 AM

Well, as a 71-year old, let me say to you, Alan: we're still young enough for very many years, and may those years be filled with further fulfilling labours. I have been a scholar all my life and am learning still. Looking at your very many threads and posts, I have come to view you as a teacher in the most honourable sense of the word, and I ask you to please continue teaching.

To show how right you are in encouraging members to read up incessantly in keris lore, I'd like to give an example of my own "research".

(Coincidentally, your Interpretation Part 4 is the very same paper I have been studying during the few days this thread has been running. I had judged it earlier to be most informative with this topic in mind.)

The seemingly irrelevant efforts I have been making by delving into all aspects of the keris (under your insistence, for which I thank you) has given me much food for thought. So I have discovered that the Indonesians (of which the greater part were Javanese) who were brought to this country during the sad time of the slave trade, helped in the development of Afrikaans, my mother tongue. In fact, in time, those Javanese and Bugis learned to speak Dutch, and they, together with the European colonists who came over, changed the Dutch into Afrikaans. The size of this contribution to the language, made by the Indonesians, was not evident during early studies, but today it is acknowledged. Today Afrikaans is the adopted (read: only) first language of not only people like myself (eleventh generation South African) but also thousands of people living here in the Western Cape Province, whose forebears came from Java, Sulawesi and the like.

I have read a lot of Shakespeare, and have seldom understood it in its correct context. Yet I have read it, talked about it, quoted from it, and taught it to my grandchildren. I will not withhold it from them because of their imperfect understanding of the Bard's life and times.

So I give you a wide smile

of appreciation and ask you not to be withholding because of uncertainties in Keris lore, but please keep on teaching in this forum!

Johan

A. G. Maisey · 28th July 2017, 12:32 AM

Thanks Johan.

Psalms 90:10

I'm not planning on flying anywhere at the moment --- except may to Blitar next March to do a photo cover of Panataran. But I am at the point where I can positively count the time left on my fingers and toes --- maybe. That's not long. It took me half that time to read and understand Pigeaud's "Java in the 14th. Century". More than double that time to get a reasonable understanding of the Javanese language. My problem is I'm a slow learner, so I need more time than most people to get a thorough understanding of anything.

Understandings come easy, but thorough understandings are very, very draining.

Three score & ten is the blink of the eye, and it is already a sextet of summer solstices behind me.

25th July 2017, 12:30 PM	#1
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	I am very much intrigued by this thread. I've gone to my two krisses and inspected the grenengs minutely. My Javanese kris has two identical ron dhas, but the Bugis kris seems not to have even one. I suppose the clarity/readability of the greneng message can get reduced by age & honest wear, just like a set of letters which have become worn.

25th July 2017, 07:55 PM	#2
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	Thank you for your informative reply, Alan. I'll have to spend some time on this to absorb it all. I often wondered whether the ron dha in a greneng were supposed to be identical or not, because quite often they are not - even though on their individual merits they look to be aesthetically pleasing. And I enjoyed learning how ron came to mean letter also.

25th July 2017, 10:58 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Bjorn, 'ron' doesn't actually mean 'letter', it infers 'letter', the word for 'letter' is 'aksara' in Old Javanese. One of the characteristics of Javanese language, and I guess of all Javanese behaviour is that very often, most particularly with high status or polite language usage, is that what is said is indirect, which to a degree permits the recipient of a spoken or written message to understand that message in a way that is in accordance with his level of need, or of prior understanding. This characteristic seems to have undergone development since the rise of the Second Kingdom of Mataram in the late 16th century, but it was probably always present in Javanese communication to some degree. In respect of Bali and keris form, it is perhaps most useful not to think of Bali as a separate entity to Jawa, but as the "Far East" of Jawa. I personally think in terms of the Jawa-Bali nexus. The old East Javanese kingdoms had some rulers from Bali, and there had been a flow of people from Jawa into Bali for at least several hundred years before the final collapse of Mojopahit. There was some movement of people from Bali back to East Jawa also, but I rather suspect that the people who did move back to East Jawa were people who had Javanese roots, not the indigenous inhabitants of Bali. Bali received the keris from East Jawa, and because of this, the form of the Balinese keris most closely echoes the form of the true keris of Mojopahit times. This is re-enforced by the fact that early Banten keris resemble in many ways the Balinese keris. This is not because there was a direct exchange between these two widely separate places, but rather because after the collapse of Mojopahit there was migration, especially migration of craftsmen, from Mojopahit to West Jawa, as well as from Mojopahit to Bali. Never forget that the people of the Archipelago did not ever regard water as a barrier, they thought of all water, both sea and rivers, as highways.

26th July 2017, 10:21 AM	#5
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Having read everything that was said above, I now come to a question I would like to ask. It is a question I would think somebody somewhere sometime in this forum would inevitably ask. Perhaps it has not been asked yet because it might be imprudent. Let me be impetuous and ask it in any case. I stand to learn by the answer. It is this: Can we not take a single representative example of an existing, properly cut ancient Javanese greneng of which the interpretation is clear, or might have already been done, and demonstrate that reading here? I realise the danger that if this is done, there might be individuals clamouring for their own kerisses' grenengs to be "read"! I myself won't be in that queue, however, because I believe that will be a ridiculous request. But I ask the question concerning a single representative (Javanese) example, and I myself will be interested in this single demonstration greneng being interpreted. (And for that matter, it relates very well with Bjorn's introductory post #1 above.)

26th July 2017, 01:07 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Johan, it is not possible to understand anything if that anything is taken out of context. If we take a sentence from, let us say Shakespeare, is it possible to understand the message that the selected sentence carries, lacking the context of the play? I suggest to you that it is totally impossible. So it is with the keris and everything that pertains to it. In any case, I have been pushing my own little barrow for more years than I can count, trying to get some people to try to understand just a little bit about what it is that they collect. Very few people are prepared to make the effort to learn their ABC before they try to read "War & Peace". There are no short cuts. We must put in the hard work first. Regrettably. When it comes to the keris in Jawa we need to put in a lot of what might seem like irrelevant effort before we can even begin to understand, then it becomes a matter of "understand what?" even if we understand the words, does that mean that we understand the message, or further, that we understand that message in context? Collectors prefer to collect. Its what they do. Their interest is in the physical. I am now 76 years old. I have had an interest in the keris for more than 60 years. For the last almost 50 years I have actively studied the keris. I probably will not live very much longer, and I will die knowing very, very little about the keris. Here is a beginning for you:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE4.html

27th July 2017, 09:47 AM	#7
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Well, as a 71-year old, let me say to you, Alan: we're still young enough for very many years, and may those years be filled with further fulfilling labours. I have been a scholar all my life and am learning still. Looking at your very many threads and posts, I have come to view you as a teacher in the most honourable sense of the word, and I ask you to please continue teaching. To show how right you are in encouraging members to read up incessantly in keris lore, I'd like to give an example of my own "research". (Coincidentally, your Interpretation Part 4 is the very same paper I have been studying during the few days this thread has been running. I had judged it earlier to be most informative with this topic in mind.) The seemingly irrelevant efforts I have been making by delving into all aspects of the keris (under your insistence, for which I thank you) has given me much food for thought. So I have discovered that the Indonesians (of which the greater part were Javanese) who were brought to this country during the sad time of the slave trade, helped in the development of Afrikaans, my mother tongue. In fact, in time, those Javanese and Bugis learned to speak Dutch, and they, together with the European colonists who came over, changed the Dutch into Afrikaans. The size of this contribution to the language, made by the Indonesians, was not evident during early studies, but today it is acknowledged. Today Afrikaans is the adopted (read: only) first language of not only people like myself (eleventh generation South African) but also thousands of people living here in the Western Cape Province, whose forebears came from Java, Sulawesi and the like. I have read a lot of Shakespeare, and have seldom understood it in its correct context. Yet I have read it, talked about it, quoted from it, and taught it to my grandchildren. I will not withhold it from them because of their imperfect understanding of the Bard's life and times. So I give you a wide smile of appreciation and ask you not to be withholding because of uncertainties in Keris lore, but please keep on teaching in this forum! Johan

28th July 2017, 12:32 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Thanks Johan. Psalms 90:10 I'm not planning on flying anywhere at the moment --- except may to Blitar next March to do a photo cover of Panataran. But I am at the point where I can positively count the time left on my fingers and toes --- maybe. That's not long. It took me half that time to read and understand Pigeaud's "Java in the 14th. Century". More than double that time to get a reasonable understanding of the Javanese language. My problem is I'm a slow learner, so I need more time than most people to get a thorough understanding of anything. Understandings come easy, but thorough understandings are very, very draining. Three score & ten is the blink of the eye, and it is already a sextet of summer solstices behind me.