Balinese Barong Handle

Gustav · 22nd July 2017, 10:08 AM

Alan, I am not sure if we could find an SEA art work with greater likeness to it then the lions head on a Kastane handle.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd July 2017, 12:43 PM

Sure, maybe not.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd July 2017, 01:57 PM

I do not want to spend unavailable time on something that is of no value to my objectives, however, in all fairness I probably should add a quick further note on this matter.

The kastane is a Sinhalese (Ceylonese) weapon.
In old Sri Lanka it seems to have been primarily from the Kingdom of Kandi.
Kandi was Buddhist.
The Sinhalese people have a long association with lion symbolism, I believe a lexicographer would find that the very name of the people themselves comes from the word "sinha" or "simha" which comes from "singha" = lion.

In Sri Langka the name used for the Chinthe is "Simha", just as in Thailand the name used for the Chinthe is "singha", and this is where the confusion in calling the kastane pommel a "lion" originates. It is called a lion because the name of a Chinthe in Sri Langka is the same word as is used for a lion, but the artistic representation of the pommel is only the head of a lion.

The body of a lion and the body of a Chinthe are really very different:- one is an animal, one is human with a lion head.

If we consider the lion head on the kastane pommel in the context of weaponry from the region there are at least two possible interpretations. If interpreted as lion it becomes linked to the Sinhalese people as a whole, and perhaps to the warrior caste in particular. If interpreted as a Chinthe it becomes protective.

Possibly, as with much of symbolism from South and South East Asia, we have multi symbolism in play in this matter. That is to say that the symbol of the lion's head can be read in different ways dependent upon context. Even a weapon itself is not always just a weapon.

Where the kastane is concerned it seems to me that there has been very extended debate going on between various groups with various political or personal barrows to push that want to make this lion's head into a makara or a serapendiya. I don't want to go there, all I will say is that prior to Gustav's introduction of the idea that the possible inspiration for the lion head on the Bali hilt was a kastane hilt, I knew nothing of, and did not want to know anything of, kastanes & etc.

Anything I have written after that time has come from the net, yes, admitted, I do have access to a number of academic sources that require registration, or some other association, to get into, but I would much have preferred to use my own hardcopy references.

I presently have not the slightest doubt that the kastane pommel is intended to represent the head of a lion, not some other fabulous beast.

I suspect that the symbolic intent of this head can be interpreted in different ways dependent upon context.

To return to my original question to Gustav:-

"--- You're pretty good in identifying cultural origin of motifs, and you give the lion as Sinhalese. I am not disputing this, but my own feeling was more towards Siamese. Can you give a reference that ties this lion form to Ceylon? ---"

I think Gustav has adequately demonstrated that the form inspiration can be attributed to the Chinthe, perhaps even a Sinhalese interpretation of the Chinthe, and there is an admitted similarity between the Bali hilt lion's head and the kastane lion's heads that Gustav has shown.

My failure to be completely convinced that our Balinese carver used one of Gustav's kastane hilts, or any other kastane head is probably due to both my original placement of that Bali head into a context other than the kastane, and to the fact that since I started to look at this question I've looked at a very vast number of Chinthe images, and I can see sufficient similarity to the Bali head in any number of Chinthe heads from any number of sources, that would permit a Balinese carver to produce the hilt that started this thread.

Actually, the singha that Balinese people place into the rafters of their houses often has a head that is very similar to a Chinthe head. Maybe our carver was giving a new interpretation to a very, very old Balinese form.

Battara · 22nd July 2017, 05:21 PM

Alan, I think you make some great points and I am now inclined toward your arguments. You are correct in the motif being a common guardian. I have seen this in different Buddhist temples around the whole area.

Gustav · 23rd July 2017, 12:17 AM

Now, with some delay we see another, similar hilt, in post #9. Seeing this hilt, I never would come to the idea the model for it would have been a picture of a Kastane pommel. It's something completely different - stylistically, and my analysis was only a stylistic one.

We have had a huge and in many aspects quite interesting and entertaining thread on our Forum (and a related entry in Wikipedia, which have seen many labour pains) about what the Kastane pommel depicts. I have not the slightest interest to step again in those waters. Yes, I also am acquainted with SEA temple guardians from books about SEA art and architecture since my childhood. I surely wasn'nt there, when the hilt from #1 was carved, yet it's absolutely obvious that the carver's model was a picture of a Ceylonese Kastane pommel. So a second attempt to be more clear:

Srilankan Simha (සිංහ) on top, Madurese motif in the middle, Balinese selut, carwed in wood below.

A quite eclectic piece.

Yes, and the carving quality is quite inconsistent.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd July 2017, 01:54 AM

What has appeared above as Post#13 was intended to be added to my original comment, which has now disappeared.

Sorry, but I've already used too much time on this.

I'm out.

EDIT

Thanks Gustav, I just threw "kastane": into the search function and it is clear there is a lot of discussion on it, I do not have time to look at this, if I was interested I would, but I'm not interested in things that use a lot of time and do not contribute towards achievement of current objectives.

My apologies for my audit world view.

David · 24th July 2017, 03:17 AM

Personally i find discussion on this particular forum about the origins of the kastane hilt not only a great waste of time, but completely off topic for this forum.
Again, somewhat nicely carved, but completely non-traditional art carvings that have nothing to do with Balinese keris culture. If this is what you like to collect Alexish, so be it. But i personally do not see any further discussion of these hilts at all pertinent to what we do here on the Keris Warung Kopi forum.

22nd July 2017, 01:57 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I do not want to spend unavailable time on something that is of no value to my objectives, however, in all fairness I probably should add a quick further note on this matter. The kastane is a Sinhalese (Ceylonese) weapon. In old Sri Lanka it seems to have been primarily from the Kingdom of Kandi. Kandi was Buddhist. The Sinhalese people have a long association with lion symbolism, I believe a lexicographer would find that the very name of the people themselves comes from the word "sinha" or "simha" which comes from "singha" = lion. In Sri Langka the name used for the Chinthe is "Simha", just as in Thailand the name used for the Chinthe is "singha", and this is where the confusion in calling the kastane pommel a "lion" originates. It is called a lion because the name of a Chinthe in Sri Langka is the same word as is used for a lion, but the artistic representation of the pommel is only the head of a lion. The body of a lion and the body of a Chinthe are really very different:- one is an animal, one is human with a lion head. If we consider the lion head on the kastane pommel in the context of weaponry from the region there are at least two possible interpretations. If interpreted as lion it becomes linked to the Sinhalese people as a whole, and perhaps to the warrior caste in particular. If interpreted as a Chinthe it becomes protective. Possibly, as with much of symbolism from South and South East Asia, we have multi symbolism in play in this matter. That is to say that the symbol of the lion's head can be read in different ways dependent upon context. Even a weapon itself is not always just a weapon. Where the kastane is concerned it seems to me that there has been very extended debate going on between various groups with various political or personal barrows to push that want to make this lion's head into a makara or a serapendiya. I don't want to go there, all I will say is that prior to Gustav's introduction of the idea that the possible inspiration for the lion head on the Bali hilt was a kastane hilt, I knew nothing of, and did not want to know anything of, kastanes & etc. Anything I have written after that time has come from the net, yes, admitted, I do have access to a number of academic sources that require registration, or some other association, to get into, but I would much have preferred to use my own hardcopy references. I presently have not the slightest doubt that the kastane pommel is intended to represent the head of a lion, not some other fabulous beast. I suspect that the symbolic intent of this head can be interpreted in different ways dependent upon context. To return to my original question to Gustav:- "--- You're pretty good in identifying cultural origin of motifs, and you give the lion as Sinhalese. I am not disputing this, but my own feeling was more towards Siamese. Can you give a reference that ties this lion form to Ceylon? ---" I think Gustav has adequately demonstrated that the form inspiration can be attributed to the Chinthe, perhaps even a Sinhalese interpretation of the Chinthe, and there is an admitted similarity between the Bali hilt lion's head and the kastane lion's heads that Gustav has shown. My failure to be completely convinced that our Balinese carver used one of Gustav's kastane hilts, or any other kastane head is probably due to both my original placement of that Bali head into a context other than the kastane, and to the fact that since I started to look at this question I've looked at a very vast number of Chinthe images, and I can see sufficient similarity to the Bali head in any number of Chinthe heads from any number of sources, that would permit a Balinese carver to produce the hilt that started this thread. Actually, the singha that Balinese people place into the rafters of their houses often has a head that is very similar to a Chinthe head. Maybe our carver was giving a new interpretation to a very, very old Balinese form. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 23rd July 2017 at 01:50 AM. Reason: more time

22nd July 2017, 10:08 AM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Alan, I am not sure if we could find an SEA art work with greater likeness to it then the lions head on a Kastane handle.

22nd July 2017, 12:43 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Sure, maybe not.

22nd July 2017, 05:21 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Alan, I think you make some great points and I am now inclined toward your arguments. You are correct in the motif being a common guardian. I have seen this in different Buddhist temples around the whole area.

23rd July 2017, 12:17 AM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Now, with some delay we see another, similar hilt, in post #9. Seeing this hilt, I never would come to the idea the model for it would have been a picture of a Kastane pommel. It's something completely different - stylistically, and my analysis was only a stylistic one. We have had a huge and in many aspects quite interesting and entertaining thread on our Forum (and a related entry in Wikipedia, which have seen many labour pains) about what the Kastane pommel depicts. I have not the slightest interest to step again in those waters. Yes, I also am acquainted with SEA temple guardians from books about SEA art and architecture since my childhood. I surely wasn'nt there, when the hilt from #1 was carved, yet it's absolutely obvious that the carver's model was a picture of a Ceylonese Kastane pommel. So a second attempt to be more clear: Srilankan Simha (සිංහ) on top, Madurese motif in the middle, Balinese selut, carwed in wood below. A quite eclectic piece. Yes, and the carving quality is quite inconsistent.

23rd July 2017, 01:54 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	What has appeared above as Post#13 was intended to be added to my original comment, which has now disappeared. Sorry, but I've already used too much time on this. I'm out. EDIT Thanks Gustav, I just threw "kastane": into the search function and it is clear there is a lot of discussion on it, I do not have time to look at this, if I was interested I would, but I'm not interested in things that use a lot of time and do not contribute towards achievement of current objectives. My apologies for my audit world view.

24th July 2017, 03:17 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Personally i find discussion on this particular forum about the origins of the kastane hilt not only a great waste of time, but completely off topic for this forum. Again, somewhat nicely carved, but completely non-traditional art carvings that have nothing to do with Balinese keris culture. If this is what you like to collect Alexish, so be it. But i personally do not see any further discussion of these hilts at all pertinent to what we do here on the Keris Warung Kopi forum.