Jineta/nimcha/kattara

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th July 2017, 05:49 PM

Searching the web I discovered this amazing picture at my armoury.com see http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.13183.html

Whilst the Moroccan Nimcha has occasionally been associated in the design to or from this weapon I see virtually no link whatsoever except a vague potential hint because of the turned down quillons ...which as you can see bare no resemblance at all, nor does the hilt; whilst the blades are totally different...in fact the Moroccan blade is often European.

The swords below are indicated as (Top left to right) but may be incomplete as there are 11 descriptions but 12 pictures!! but it may be correct up to item 7.
1 - Sword found in Sangueza, pommel is missing (XIIIth century ?, probably the oldest known)
2 - Sword of the Cardinal Infant Don Fernando (Real Armeria in Madrid)
3 - Sword said to be of Sayyidi Yahya (Casa de los Tiros, Granada)
4 - Sword of San Marcello de Leon (museo archeologico, Madrid)
5 - Sword said to be of the Sultan Boabil (museo del ejercito, Madrid)
6 - Sword "bèrbère" (armeria real, Madrid)
7 - Sword hilt
************************************************** ******
8 - Sword of the "Cabinet des Médailles" (B Nat, Paris)
9 - Sword of San Telmo (San Sebastian)
10 - Sword said to be of Abindarraez (MET museum, NY)
11 - Sword of the Kassel Museum (Germany)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:14 AM

As Marc rightly pointed out before, the swords with down curved quillons have an old Islamic provenance, and I quote:
"The down-turned quillons found on some medieval weapons and in medieval pictorial sources are generally agreed to be of eastern origin or at least inspiration. The Islamic, Mediterranean and Iberian archaeological evidence ranges from quillons which are both substantial and down-turned, to those which are so truncated and rudimentary that they merely reflect this fashion (figures 28-30, 33, 35, 38-44 & 46-51) They are relatively rare in early medieval western Europe but do appear in Mozarab manuscript illustrations from the Iberian peninsula in the 10th and 11th centuries. As such they probably reflected Islamic Andalusian rather than Christian northern Spanish military styles, particularly as they are mostly on swords whose scabbards are carried on baldrics rather than sword-belts. In these manuscripts, however, the down-turned quillons are often associated with the clover-leaf or trilobate pommel rather than the spherical pommel of the Gibraltar swords 63 (figure 65). Early western Mediterranean examples of genuinely down-turned quillons include the probably western Islamic sword from the Agay shipwreck (figure 39), now considered to date from the 11th or 12th centuries 64, and a fragmentary sword from the region of Seville (figure 40)." David Nicolle, “Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar”, Gladius, Vol. XXII, 2002, pp.178-180.

This is confirmed in the study by Rafael Carmona Ávila, “Un Arriaz Broncíneo Decorado, de Espada de Época Omeya Andalusí, Hallado en el Occidente del Alfoz de Madinat Qurtuba (Cordoba), Gladius, Vol. XXVII, 2007, p.99, who adds that only in the 13th Century this type of quillons are associated with Christian swords in the Iberic Peninsula, but with the variance of beign more long and narrow. He offers a long list of illustrations from this period as a proof.
Interestingly enough, the downcurved quillons had more than a fashion. It was a practical need, derived from an adapted style of fencing:
“It seems to have been from the Sassanian Persians that Muslim Arab swordsmen learned what later became known in Europe as the ‘Italian Grip,’ though this may actually have first been developed in early medieval India. It involved placing the index finger of the sword hand over the quillons, thus bringing the centre of gravity closer to the point of percussion….Light cavalry combat a la jinete was again associated with what western European came to know as the Italian Grip and, according to some scholars, with curved quillons 10 .” (the bold is mine) David Nicolle, Idem. p.158.
From this, we see two elements: the downcurved quillons are first systematically (but not exclusively) used in the Islamic context, and second, the Italian grip (which is not “Italian”) was first used in the same context. I will come to this point later. I don’t pretend that the downcurved quillons were “discovered” or “invented” in any place in particular, though all points to the east. What I expose is the systematic use of this type of quillons by certain cultures, based on practical needs, rather than fashion. About the Sassanian grip which, by the way, is associated with the development of the ricasso, please see Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer, “From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier”, Gladius, Vol.II, 1963, pp-30, 31.

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:17 AM

In the early Islamic representations to at least the 13th Century, the curvature of the quillons is more moderate than the later Nasrd-Nasrid swords. Please see this illustrations from David Nicolle, “Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar”, Gladius, Vol. XXII, 2002,pp.168-169.

53) Relief carving of cavalryman on ivory chess-piece, Islamic Sind or eastern Iran 9th century AD (Cabinet des Médailles, inv. 311, Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris). 54) Warrior on lustreware bowl, Iraq 9-10 cent AD (Museum of Fine Arts, inv. 57.684, Boston). 55) Warrior on ceramic bowl from Nishapur, Khorasan-10th century AD (Victoria & Albert Museum, inv. C.294-1987, London). 56) Warrior on fragment of ceramic bowl from Nishapur, Khorasan-10th century AD (National Museum, Tehran). 57) Warrior on ceramic bowl from Nishapur, Khorasan 10th century AD (National Museum, Tehran). 58) Warrior on fragment of ceramic bowl from Nishapur, Khorasan, Metropolitan Museum of Art, inv. 66.176, New York). 59) One of a pair of mirror-image gold necklace pendants, Buyid Persian 10th century, (Art Museum, Inv.1953.70, Cincinnati). 60) Unnamed warrior Saint on a Synaxary from Tutun, Fayum, Coptic Egyptian, 10th century AD (Pierpont Morgan Library, inv. M613, f.1v, New York).

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:20 AM

Take note of the quillons in the figure No.54, and see the similarities with the Qattara.
An image of the swords studied by Nicolle in this study on the page 154:

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:22 AM

Note the presence of the spherical pommel, not to be confused with a discoidal pommel, more common on the European swords. This pommel maybe will evolve to the more dome-shaped with a finial as in the Nasrid swords, or maybe the last is a late stylistic import into North Africa or to Al-Andalus through North Africa. The provenance of this swords, in the opinion of most of the specialists, including Oakeshott, is occidental North Africa, around the 12th Century.
There are more illustrations in the study from Nicolle, which can be downloaded here:

Note the presence of the spherical pommel, not to be confused with a discoidal pommel, more common on the European swords. This pommel maybe will evolve to the more dome-shaped with a finial as in the Nasrid swords, or maybe the last is a late stylistic import into North Africa or to Al-Andalus through North Africa. The provenance of this swords, in the opinion of most of the specialists, including Oakeshott, is occidental North Africa, around the 12th Century.
There are more illustrations in the study from Nicolle, which can be downloaded here:

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...download/59/60

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:27 AM

The finial of the late Nasrid sword could be a development of this type of pommel, from a sword hilt described as shared Mediterranean and Middle Eastern style, 11th Century, David Nicolle and Angus McBride, The Moors. The Islamic West 7th – 15th Centuries AD, p.10

Gonzalo G · 27th July 2017, 05:28 AM

Please take notice of the finial, and also the type of quillons. They began to resemble those of the nimcha, or it is my imagination? More than any quillons in an European sword? Is there any European sword from the 11th Century or before with this type of quillons? I would like to see a picture, since I have not enough bibliography. And also see the broad blade. The provenance is unknown, but the sword is in the Museo del Ejército in Madrid. Given the globular pommel and other features, it is not difficult to imagine the origin, especially when Nicolle says “…the artistic evidence supports the idea that the spherical pommel was a Middle Eastern and Mediterranean fashion…” (David Nicolle, “Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar”, Gladius, Vol. XXII, 2002, p.174).
Not unlikely also North African. And one must take into account that North Africa and Al-Andalus, contrary to common ideas, were culturally more sophisticated than the rest of Europe during all the Middle Ages.

19th July 2017, 05:49 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Searching the web I discovered this amazing picture at my armoury.com see http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.13183.html Whilst the Moroccan Nimcha has occasionally been associated in the design to or from this weapon I see virtually no link whatsoever except a vague potential hint because of the turned down quillons ...which as you can see bare no resemblance at all, nor does the hilt; whilst the blades are totally different...in fact the Moroccan blade is often European. The swords below are indicated as (Top left to right) but may be incomplete as there are 11 descriptions but 12 pictures!! but it may be correct up to item 7. 1 - Sword found in Sangueza, pommel is missing (XIIIth century ?, probably the oldest known) 2 - Sword of the Cardinal Infant Don Fernando (Real Armeria in Madrid) 3 - Sword said to be of Sayyidi Yahya (Casa de los Tiros, Granada) 4 - Sword of San Marcello de Leon (museo archeologico, Madrid) 5 - Sword said to be of the Sultan Boabil (museo del ejercito, Madrid) 6 - Sword "bèrbère" (armeria real, Madrid) 7 - Sword hilt ************************************************ **** 8 - Sword of the "Cabinet des Médailles" (B Nat, Paris) 9 - Sword of San Telmo (San Sebastian) 10 - Sword said to be of Abindarraez (MET museum, NY) 11 - Sword of the Kassel Museum (Germany) Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 19th July 2017 at 06:16 PM.

27th July 2017, 05:17 AM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	In the early Islamic representations to at least the 13th Century, the curvature of the quillons is more moderate than the later Nasrd-Nasrid swords. Please see this illustrations from David Nicolle, “Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar”, Gladius, Vol. XXII, 2002,pp.168-169. 53) Relief carving of cavalryman on ivory chess-piece, Islamic Sind or eastern Iran 9th century AD (Cabinet des Médailles, inv. 311, Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris). 54) Warrior on lustreware bowl, Iraq 9-10 cent AD (Museum of Fine Arts, inv. 57.684, Boston). 55) Warrior on ceramic bowl from Nishapur, Khorasan-10th century AD (Victoria & Albert Museum, inv. C.294-1987, London). 56) Warrior on fragment of ceramic bowl from Nishapur, Khorasan-10th century AD (National Museum, Tehran). 57) Warrior on ceramic bowl from Nishapur, Khorasan 10th century AD (National Museum, Tehran). 58) Warrior on fragment of ceramic bowl from Nishapur, Khorasan, Metropolitan Museum of Art, inv. 66.176, New York). 59) One of a pair of mirror-image gold necklace pendants, Buyid Persian 10th century, (Art Museum, Inv.1953.70, Cincinnati). 60) Unnamed warrior Saint on a Synaxary from Tutun, Fayum, Coptic Egyptian, 10th century AD (Pierpont Morgan Library, inv. M613, f.1v, New York). Attached Images

27th July 2017, 05:20 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Take note of the quillons in the figure No.54, and see the similarities with the Qattara. An image of the swords studied by Nicolle in this study on the page 154: Attached Images

27th July 2017, 05:27 AM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	The finial of the late Nasrid sword could be a development of this type of pommel, from a sword hilt described as shared Mediterranean and Middle Eastern style, 11th Century, David Nicolle and Angus McBride, The Moors. The Islamic West 7th – 15th Centuries AD, p.10 Attached Images

27th July 2017, 05:14 AM	#2
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	As Marc rightly pointed out before, the swords with down curved quillons have an old Islamic provenance, and I quote: "The down-turned quillons found on some medieval weapons and in medieval pictorial sources are generally agreed to be of eastern origin or at least inspiration. The Islamic, Mediterranean and Iberian archaeological evidence ranges from quillons which are both substantial and down-turned, to those which are so truncated and rudimentary that they merely reflect this fashion (figures 28-30, 33, 35, 38-44 & 46-51) They are relatively rare in early medieval western Europe but do appear in Mozarab manuscript illustrations from the Iberian peninsula in the 10th and 11th centuries. As such they probably reflected Islamic Andalusian rather than Christian northern Spanish military styles, particularly as they are mostly on swords whose scabbards are carried on baldrics rather than sword-belts. In these manuscripts, however, the down-turned quillons are often associated with the clover-leaf or trilobate pommel rather than the spherical pommel of the Gibraltar swords 63 (figure 65). Early western Mediterranean examples of genuinely down-turned quillons include the probably western Islamic sword from the Agay shipwreck (figure 39), now considered to date from the 11th or 12th centuries 64, and a fragmentary sword from the region of Seville (figure 40)." David Nicolle, “Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar”, Gladius, Vol. XXII, 2002, pp.178-180. This is confirmed in the study by Rafael Carmona Ávila, “Un Arriaz Broncíneo Decorado, de Espada de Época Omeya Andalusí, Hallado en el Occidente del Alfoz de Madinat Qurtuba (Cordoba), Gladius, Vol. XXVII, 2007, p.99, who adds that only in the 13th Century this type of quillons are associated with Christian swords in the Iberic Peninsula, but with the variance of beign more long and narrow. He offers a long list of illustrations from this period as a proof. Interestingly enough, the downcurved quillons had more than a fashion. It was a practical need, derived from an adapted style of fencing: “It seems to have been from the Sassanian Persians that Muslim Arab swordsmen learned what later became known in Europe as the ‘Italian Grip,’ though this may actually have first been developed in early medieval India. It involved placing the index finger of the sword hand over the quillons, thus bringing the centre of gravity closer to the point of percussion….Light cavalry combat a la jinete was again associated with what western European came to know as the Italian Grip and, according to some scholars, with curved quillons 10 .” (the bold is mine) David Nicolle, Idem. p.158. From this, we see two elements: the downcurved quillons are first systematically (but not exclusively) used in the Islamic context, and second, the Italian grip (which is not “Italian”) was first used in the same context. I will come to this point later. I don’t pretend that the downcurved quillons were “discovered” or “invented” in any place in particular, though all points to the east. What I expose is the systematic use of this type of quillons by certain cultures, based on practical needs, rather than fashion. About the Sassanian grip which, by the way, is associated with the development of the ricasso, please see Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer, “From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier”, Gladius, Vol.II, 1963, pp-30, 31.

27th July 2017, 05:22 AM	#5
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Note the presence of the spherical pommel, not to be confused with a discoidal pommel, more common on the European swords. This pommel maybe will evolve to the more dome-shaped with a finial as in the Nasrid swords, or maybe the last is a late stylistic import into North Africa or to Al-Andalus through North Africa. The provenance of this swords, in the opinion of most of the specialists, including Oakeshott, is occidental North Africa, around the 12th Century. There are more illustrations in the study from Nicolle, which can be downloaded here: Note the presence of the spherical pommel, not to be confused with a discoidal pommel, more common on the European swords. This pommel maybe will evolve to the more dome-shaped with a finial as in the Nasrid swords, or maybe the last is a late stylistic import into North Africa or to Al-Andalus through North Africa. The provenance of this swords, in the opinion of most of the specialists, including Oakeshott, is occidental North Africa, around the 12th Century. There are more illustrations in the study from Nicolle, which can be downloaded here: http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...download/59/60

27th July 2017, 05:28 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Please take notice of the finial, and also the type of quillons. They began to resemble those of the nimcha, or it is my imagination? More than any quillons in an European sword? Is there any European sword from the 11th Century or before with this type of quillons? I would like to see a picture, since I have not enough bibliography. And also see the broad blade. The provenance is unknown, but the sword is in the Museo del Ejército in Madrid. Given the globular pommel and other features, it is not difficult to imagine the origin, especially when Nicolle says “…the artistic evidence supports the idea that the spherical pommel was a Middle Eastern and Mediterranean fashion…” (David Nicolle, “Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar”, Gladius, Vol. XXII, 2002, p.174). Not unlikely also North African. And one must take into account that North Africa and Al-Andalus, contrary to common ideas, were culturally more sophisticated than the rest of Europe during all the Middle Ages.