Swords in Art -- what is this?

ariel · 19th July 2017, 03:27 PM

Alex, I see your point, but still tend to agree with the "detractors".

Your assumption is based on the configuration of the blade as it is presented by the medieval European artist. BTW, what is the exact age of this picture? And what part of Europe is it from?

My point is that the Circassian/Crimean saber you are referring to was limited to a tiny and pretty isolated area. Yes, I know that the Genoese had their trading posts in Crimea, but I find it less than convincing that the Crimean/Circassian pattern was well known enough in Europe to serve as a model for an artist.

This pattern is exceedingly rare, and the few existing examples date to the 17-18 century ( see books by Gutowski and Rivkin) . The earliest known example in European collections is in Sweden, allegedly a military trophy of Gustavus II Adolfus and is dated to 1600, well after the potential date of the miniature in question. No doubt: this pattern was in actual use even earlier, but for that we have to go deeper into Circassian archeology, with only singular examples in local burials. This was a rare pattern to start with, mainly due to its complex forging, clumsiness and the resultant impracticality. While we have literally hundreds of existing "Tatar" sabers with regular blades dating to 8-15 centuries, the "bayonet-tip" recurved ones can be counted in a couple of dozens at the most.

I am with Marius here: IMHO it was just a technical artistic goof.

ALEX · 19th July 2017, 04:08 PM

Personally, I'd not doubt the author's intent as the painting is of superior quality and execution overall. It was done by a master iconographer who was capable of drawing a straight line, and I assume it to be of 16-17thC Russian origin. As for these recurved blades - yes, they're rarer than straight bladed swords nowadays, and likely were as such back then, but this is not an overwhelming argument that they were unseen/exceedingly rare in 16-17thC. Their fragile construction could be a contributing factor to their low survivalability to the present day. This is unproved of course, and until better evidences it'll remain an individual opinion.

ariel · 19th July 2017, 07:37 PM

This does not look to be of Russian origin, and is definitely older than 16-17 century.
My guess ( an I am not an art historian), it is Western European, well before 15 century ( I would not be surprised by 13-th-14th, or even earlier).

ALEX · 20th July 2017, 11:08 AM

Ariel, You're right. Not a Russian painting. It is Italian, mid 15th Century by Sano di Pietro (Siena, Italy 1405-1481): Beheading of St John the Baptist.
Here's another of his works showing straight swords, he certainly knew how to draw a straight line

The rest would be speculation. However, even though the time period matches, I must agree with you, Marius, Motan and Dave that it is quite unlikely that recurved sword on the first painting refers to recurved sabers of Russland origin. Thank you for an interesting post and discussion.

fernando · 20th July 2017, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Ariel, You're right. Not a Russian painting. It is Italian, mid 15th Century by Sano di Pietro (Siena, Italy 1405-1481): Beheading of St John the Baptist.
Here's another of his works showing straight swords ...

This one surely being Herodes ordering the killing of all children (under the age of two) of Bethlem and its surroundings.

mariusgmioc · 20th July 2017, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Here's another of his works showing straight swords, he certainly knew how to draw a straight line

The rest would be speculation.

Hello Alex,

I didn't doubt his capacity to paint straight swords. It is curved swords that make me doubt. And specifically the sword in the original image that, the way it is painted, CANNOT FIT IN ITS SCABBARD... if it were for real.

And if you want to further asses the painter's skill, try to insert a saber in its scabbard using exactly the grip and the position of the scabbard from the painting.

Good luck!

20th July 2017, 11:08 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Ariel, You're right. Not a Russian painting. It is Italian, mid 15th Century by Sano di Pietro (Siena, Italy 1405-1481): Beheading of St John the Baptist. Here's another of his works showing straight swords, he certainly knew how to draw a straight line The rest would be speculation. However, even though the time period matches, I must agree with you, Marius, Motan and Dave that it is quite unlikely that recurved sword on the first painting refers to recurved sabers of Russland origin. Thank you for an interesting post and discussion. Attached Images

19th July 2017, 03:27 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alex, I see your point, but still tend to agree with the "detractors". Your assumption is based on the configuration of the blade as it is presented by the medieval European artist. BTW, what is the exact age of this picture? And what part of Europe is it from? My point is that the Circassian/Crimean saber you are referring to was limited to a tiny and pretty isolated area. Yes, I know that the Genoese had their trading posts in Crimea, but I find it less than convincing that the Crimean/Circassian pattern was well known enough in Europe to serve as a model for an artist. This pattern is exceedingly rare, and the few existing examples date to the 17-18 century ( see books by Gutowski and Rivkin) . The earliest known example in European collections is in Sweden, allegedly a military trophy of Gustavus II Adolfus and is dated to 1600, well after the potential date of the miniature in question. No doubt: this pattern was in actual use even earlier, but for that we have to go deeper into Circassian archeology, with only singular examples in local burials. This was a rare pattern to start with, mainly due to its complex forging, clumsiness and the resultant impracticality. While we have literally hundreds of existing "Tatar" sabers with regular blades dating to 8-15 centuries, the "bayonet-tip" recurved ones can be counted in a couple of dozens at the most. I am with Marius here: IMHO it was just a technical artistic goof.

19th July 2017, 04:08 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Personally, I'd not doubt the author's intent as the painting is of superior quality and execution overall. It was done by a master iconographer who was capable of drawing a straight line, and I assume it to be of 16-17thC Russian origin. As for these recurved blades - yes, they're rarer than straight bladed swords nowadays, and likely were as such back then, but this is not an overwhelming argument that they were unseen/exceedingly rare in 16-17thC. Their fragile construction could be a contributing factor to their low survivalability to the present day. This is unproved of course, and until better evidences it'll remain an individual opinion.

19th July 2017, 07:37 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This does not look to be of Russian origin, and is definitely older than 16-17 century. My guess ( an I am not an art historian), it is Western European, well before 15 century ( I would not be surprised by 13-th-14th, or even earlier).