Swords in Art -- what is this?

DaveA · 16th July 2017, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

In the link, scroll down to post number 12, 4th image. Similarly shaped recurved blade. The painting is a bit stylized but the curve matches. 16th Century also matches this blade type period.

When I refreshed the page the other pictures came up. Fabulous thread! Now I wish I had gone with my wife!

I agree, the sword in picture #4, post 14 could be a match. That sword is very interesting. Is the tip conical, as in a pesh kabz, for piercing chain mail armor?

Dave A

ALEX · 16th July 2017, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

When I refreshed the page the other pictures came up. Fabulous thread! Now I wish I had gone with my wife!

I agree, the sword in picture #4, post 14 could be a match. That sword is very interesting. Is the tip conical, as in a pesh kabz, for piercing chain mail armor?

Dave A

The earlier ones, around 15th Century, had sharp narrow tips with very shallow recurve. Unlike short Pesh Kabz of 18th-19thC they are not reinforced and not designed for armor piercing (generally, the sword is not well suited for that). Later, after 16thC the recurve got more defined as in above example.
An interesting thread where the early art is matching the early item.

ariel · 17th July 2017, 12:10 PM

Alex, are you referring to the old Circassian saber that Kirill Rivkin identifies as mysterious Jateh?

I am very dubious. IMHO, there is no mystery here, just a drawing inaccuracy of the artist. I vote for a simple Shamshir-like saber. The artist was no Rembrandt, that's for sure.

ALEX · 17th July 2017, 12:35 PM

Ariel, there are also 2 examples in the Astvatsatryan "Caucasian Arms" book, from the 15thC Russland. Their "bayonet-like" tips are not recurved as in the painting... the later example from the Hermitage seems to be later development of the form with more developed recurve... The forms of the handle and crossquard also conform to the 16thC period. I believe the author of the painting depicted the sword based on observed sample(s) of that time.
...
Here is the image of Hermitage sabre. The obviously stylized painting may refer to similar sword, notice the similarities in the blade and handle forms - almost pomeless handle, short crossguard, slight recurve to the blade. IMHO the similarities are quite evident to be an imaginative depiction.

mariusgmioc · 18th July 2017, 07:41 PM

Hello,

Before going deeper into this, I think we should notice that the blade in the painting DOES NOT FIT the scabbard where it is about to be inserted in!

So the recurved curvature is more likely the result of a painting error.

The painter started with a curvature, but then realised that the curvature wouldn't bring the tip of the blade to the opening of the scabbard and since he couldn't simply erase the blade and paint a new one, he simply made the adjustment to the curvature. As simple as that.

An indication regarding the skill of the painter can also be derived from the position of the hand holding the sword...

Alex, the sword in the museum photo has an obviously bent & twisted blade and is not at all recurved.

ariel · 19th July 2017, 03:27 PM

Alex, I see your point, but still tend to agree with the "detractors".

Your assumption is based on the configuration of the blade as it is presented by the medieval European artist. BTW, what is the exact age of this picture? And what part of Europe is it from?

My point is that the Circassian/Crimean saber you are referring to was limited to a tiny and pretty isolated area. Yes, I know that the Genoese had their trading posts in Crimea, but I find it less than convincing that the Crimean/Circassian pattern was well known enough in Europe to serve as a model for an artist.

This pattern is exceedingly rare, and the few existing examples date to the 17-18 century ( see books by Gutowski and Rivkin) . The earliest known example in European collections is in Sweden, allegedly a military trophy of Gustavus II Adolfus and is dated to 1600, well after the potential date of the miniature in question. No doubt: this pattern was in actual use even earlier, but for that we have to go deeper into Circassian archeology, with only singular examples in local burials. This was a rare pattern to start with, mainly due to its complex forging, clumsiness and the resultant impracticality. While we have literally hundreds of existing "Tatar" sabers with regular blades dating to 8-15 centuries, the "bayonet-tip" recurved ones can be counted in a couple of dozens at the most.

I am with Marius here: IMHO it was just a technical artistic goof.

ALEX · 19th July 2017, 04:08 PM

Personally, I'd not doubt the author's intent as the painting is of superior quality and execution overall. It was done by a master iconographer who was capable of drawing a straight line, and I assume it to be of 16-17thC Russian origin. As for these recurved blades - yes, they're rarer than straight bladed swords nowadays, and likely were as such back then, but this is not an overwhelming argument that they were unseen/exceedingly rare in 16-17thC. Their fragile construction could be a contributing factor to their low survivalability to the present day. This is unproved of course, and until better evidences it'll remain an individual opinion.

arsendaday · 23rd July 2017, 12:42 AM

Hello All

As soon, as I looked at the painting I thought of the Tatar Saber. I have couple of observations that mostly answer to mariusgmioc's post and that's the reason I quote it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Before going deeper into this, I think we should notice that the blade in the painting DOES NOT FIT the scabbard where it is about to be inserted in!

Here is a link with the sword and the scabbard. Very much alike the one in the painting! And it fits.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4101

Quote:

The painter started with a curvature, but then realised that the curvature wouldn't bring the tip of the blade to the opening of the scabbard and since he couldn't simply erase the blade and paint a new one, he simply made the adjustment to the curvature. As simple as that.

Usually painters start their work with outlines and the sketches so there would be very little (if any) mistakes on the final painting. And of course he could erase any part of the painting while the paint is wet, or paint over it.

Quote:

An indication regarding the skill of the painter can also be derived from the position of the hand holding the sword...

That's exactly how one would hold the sword to be able to put the tip of the sword in. At the recurve he would move his hand a little bit and continue with the rest of the sword.

To answer the question as to how would Europeans know about the Tatar sabers; here is an article in Wikipedia about Lipka Tatars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars

And the timeframe matches.

IMHO, For an European (Italian) painter to paint a scene that took place in the Middle East, a good reference for a foreign weapon could be Tatar Sabre that would look exotic (at least to Europeans) and could have been used by Tatars in Ottoman army, who (Ottoman Empire) occupied Jerusalem during the time of the painting.

mariusgmioc · 23rd July 2017, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsendaday

Hello All

As soon, as I looked at the painting I thought of the Tatar Saber. I have couple of observations that mostly answer to mariusgmioc's post and that's the reason I quote it.

Here is a link with the sword and the scabbard. Very much alike the one in the painting! And it fits.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4101

Usually painters start their work with outlines and the sketches so there would be very little (if any) mistakes on the final painting. And of course he could erase any part of the painting while the paint is wet, or paint over it.

That's exactly how one would hold the sword to be able to put the tip of the sword in. At the recurve he would move his hand a little bit and continue with the rest of the sword.

To answer the question as to how would Europeans know about the Tatar sabers; here is an article in Wikipedia about Lipka Tatars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars

And the timeframe matches.

IMHO, For an European (Italian) painter to paint a scene that took place in the Middle East, a good reference for a foreign weapon could be Tatar Sabre that would look exotic (at least to Europeans) and could have been used by Tatars in Ottoman army, who (Ottoman Empire) occupied Jerusalem during the time of the painting.

1. Yes, the Tatar saber you are talking about is "very much alike the one in the painting" but at the same time IT IS ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT. The sword in the painting clearly displays a reverse curve towards the tip, while the Tatar saber does not (the Tatar saber has only a narrower tip portion).

And yes, the Tatar saber fits its scabbard but the one in the painting does not, exactly because of its reverse curvature.

2. "That's exactly how one would hold the sword to be able to put the tip of the sword in."... Well, maybe, but only if the sword has the edge on its concave side of the blade, or if it is used like a Shotel. However, for a normal saber, the grip is with the fingers towards the edge side, and the thumb towards the spine side of the blade.

3. I do not know whether the painter started with a sketch and how detailed the sketch was. Moreover, I do not know how easily can a painting error be corrected. I am only speculating that the reverse curve in this case is simply the result of a technical painting error that the painter didn't consider important enough to correct without visible trace.

18th July 2017, 07:41 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Hello, Before going deeper into this, I think we should notice that the blade in the painting DOES NOT FIT the scabbard where it is about to be inserted in! So the recurved curvature is more likely the result of a painting error. The painter started with a curvature, but then realised that the curvature wouldn't bring the tip of the blade to the opening of the scabbard and since he couldn't simply erase the blade and paint a new one, he simply made the adjustment to the curvature. As simple as that. An indication regarding the skill of the painter can also be derived from the position of the hand holding the sword... Alex, the sword in the museum photo has an obviously bent & twisted blade and is not at all recurved. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 18th July 2017 at 10:29 PM.

17th July 2017, 12:10 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alex, are you referring to the old Circassian saber that Kirill Rivkin identifies as mysterious Jateh? I am very dubious. IMHO, there is no mystery here, just a drawing inaccuracy of the artist. I vote for a simple Shamshir-like saber. The artist was no Rembrandt, that's for sure.

17th July 2017, 12:35 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Ariel, there are also 2 examples in the Astvatsatryan "Caucasian Arms" book, from the 15thC Russland. Their "bayonet-like" tips are not recurved as in the painting... the later example from the Hermitage seems to be later development of the form with more developed recurve... The forms of the handle and crossquard also conform to the 16thC period. I believe the author of the painting depicted the sword based on observed sample(s) of that time. ... Here is the image of Hermitage sabre. The obviously stylized painting may refer to similar sword, notice the similarities in the blade and handle forms - almost pomeless handle, short crossguard, slight recurve to the blade. IMHO the similarities are quite evident to be an imaginative depiction. Attached Images Last edited by ALEX; 17th July 2017 at 12:55 PM.

19th July 2017, 03:27 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alex, I see your point, but still tend to agree with the "detractors". Your assumption is based on the configuration of the blade as it is presented by the medieval European artist. BTW, what is the exact age of this picture? And what part of Europe is it from? My point is that the Circassian/Crimean saber you are referring to was limited to a tiny and pretty isolated area. Yes, I know that the Genoese had their trading posts in Crimea, but I find it less than convincing that the Crimean/Circassian pattern was well known enough in Europe to serve as a model for an artist. This pattern is exceedingly rare, and the few existing examples date to the 17-18 century ( see books by Gutowski and Rivkin) . The earliest known example in European collections is in Sweden, allegedly a military trophy of Gustavus II Adolfus and is dated to 1600, well after the potential date of the miniature in question. No doubt: this pattern was in actual use even earlier, but for that we have to go deeper into Circassian archeology, with only singular examples in local burials. This was a rare pattern to start with, mainly due to its complex forging, clumsiness and the resultant impracticality. While we have literally hundreds of existing "Tatar" sabers with regular blades dating to 8-15 centuries, the "bayonet-tip" recurved ones can be counted in a couple of dozens at the most. I am with Marius here: IMHO it was just a technical artistic goof.

19th July 2017, 04:08 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Personally, I'd not doubt the author's intent as the painting is of superior quality and execution overall. It was done by a master iconographer who was capable of drawing a straight line, and I assume it to be of 16-17thC Russian origin. As for these recurved blades - yes, they're rarer than straight bladed swords nowadays, and likely were as such back then, but this is not an overwhelming argument that they were unseen/exceedingly rare in 16-17thC. Their fragile construction could be a contributing factor to their low survivalability to the present day. This is unproved of course, and until better evidences it'll remain an individual opinion.