Interesting sword for comment

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 03:32 AM

Hi Rick,
This is an extremely interesting blade and certainly does appear to have some age to it. Without going further into the files here, I am just wondering if this might be a somewhat earlier blade for an Omani kattara. It seems they favored high flexibility in thier blades, which typically had centrally fullered form as well as the very rounded tip. Although typically the kattara blades were longer (about 36") possibly they had shorter examples as well?
I always thought it was interesting that the takouba typically has such a rounded tip, which suggests use of slashing cuts, and Omani influences are seen further into the Sahara in the guardless Manding sabres.

Just perspective, not discounting the possibility this may very well be an early Islamic blade possibly proto-kattara.

All the best,
Jim

RSWORD · 13th March 2006, 12:59 AM

Hi Jim. I appreciate the additional thoughts. I had thought about this blade possibly being an early Kattara blade but then I got to thinking about most examples I have seen and while they all had the thin blade in common and rounded tip, they did not have the width this blade has. Most I have seen had blades that were probably not over 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" wide at the hilt then tapering. Many say that the Kattara is based on early Arab blades and while I try not to be overy optimistic, I have a gut feeling this sword blade has some fairly significant age to it. As Ham mentioned, some more detailed pictures would be helpful. Here are 3 pictures, 2 of which are of the tang, and 1 of a strange small circle on the blade near the tang which is basically corroded over but perhaps was a marking at one time, maybe a kayi? If one uses the Japanese method of studying the patination on the tang to date a blade, then this tang exhibits the signs one would expect for a very old blade. It is always very hard to tell from the pictures things such as the patination color but perhaps some glues will be given from the shape of the tang.

RSWORD · 14th March 2006, 09:38 PM

I wanted to bump the thread since I have added pictures. Looking forward to additional thoughts. Ham? Jim? Thanks.

ariel · 14th March 2006, 11:17 PM

I know nothing about swordmaking.
Naive question: doesn't the tang look welded to the blade?

PUFF · 15th March 2006, 09:50 AM

The black stuff could be welding oxide or Black pitch which 's used for mounting.

RSWORD · 15th March 2006, 01:15 PM

Ariel- It does look that way however that is not the case. When you look closely at that area, you can see that the area in question has corroded from where a hilt once was located and it is the shape of this corrosion which gives clues as to the hilt style.

Puff- There is remnants of some type of adhesive. I believe due to the short tang that it would have been adhered via some type of substance. Mixed in this is some remnants of something organic. However, the black coloration is primarily due to patination and not adhesive or weld oxide. I know the difference.

ham · 15th March 2006, 04:45 PM

Rsword,

I am beginning to get a sense of this blade but we really need to see macro images of both sides of this portion please:

Ham

13th March 2006, 12:59 AM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Hi Jim. I appreciate the additional thoughts. I had thought about this blade possibly being an early Kattara blade but then I got to thinking about most examples I have seen and while they all had the thin blade in common and rounded tip, they did not have the width this blade has. Most I have seen had blades that were probably not over 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" wide at the hilt then tapering. Many say that the Kattara is based on early Arab blades and while I try not to be overy optimistic, I have a gut feeling this sword blade has some fairly significant age to it. As Ham mentioned, some more detailed pictures would be helpful. Here are 3 pictures, 2 of which are of the tang, and 1 of a strange small circle on the blade near the tang which is basically corroded over but perhaps was a marking at one time, maybe a kayi? If one uses the Japanese method of studying the patination on the tang to date a blade, then this tang exhibits the signs one would expect for a very old blade. It is always very hard to tell from the pictures things such as the patination color but perhaps some glues will be given from the shape of the tang. Attached Images

15th March 2006, 04:45 PM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Rsword, I am beginning to get a sense of this blade but we really need to see macro images of both sides of this portion please: Ham Attached Images

10th March 2006, 03:32 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,457	Hi Rick, This is an extremely interesting blade and certainly does appear to have some age to it. Without going further into the files here, I am just wondering if this might be a somewhat earlier blade for an Omani kattara. It seems they favored high flexibility in thier blades, which typically had centrally fullered form as well as the very rounded tip. Although typically the kattara blades were longer (about 36") possibly they had shorter examples as well? I always thought it was interesting that the takouba typically has such a rounded tip, which suggests use of slashing cuts, and Omani influences are seen further into the Sahara in the guardless Manding sabres. Just perspective, not discounting the possibility this may very well be an early Islamic blade possibly proto-kattara. All the best, Jim

14th March 2006, 09:38 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I wanted to bump the thread since I have added pictures. Looking forward to additional thoughts. Ham? Jim? Thanks.

14th March 2006, 11:17 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I know nothing about swordmaking. Naive question: doesn't the tang look welded to the blade?

15th March 2006, 09:50 AM	#5
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The black stuff could be welding oxide or Black pitch which 's used for mounting.

15th March 2006, 01:15 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Ariel- It does look that way however that is not the case. When you look closely at that area, you can see that the area in question has corroded from where a hilt once was located and it is the shape of this corrosion which gives clues as to the hilt style. Puff- There is remnants of some type of adhesive. I believe due to the short tang that it would have been adhered via some type of substance. Mixed in this is some remnants of something organic. However, the black coloration is primarily due to patination and not adhesive or weld oxide. I know the difference.