17th century training rapier?

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2017, 10:02 PM

Interesting perspective Philip! and of course sounds most likely. If I recall, weren't there many cases of European arming swords as well which had these very fully sharpened radiused points, which were remarkably effective in slashing cuts?
It seems as well, in Italian fencing there was a slashing cut (usually to the face) which was termed 'stramazone' and intended to distract the opponent with said wound. I have not located the reference, but seems like somewhat rebated points sharpened in this manner were used.

Also, it has always been curious that North African swords such as the takouba always have a 'rounded point' (I believe Omani sa'ifs as well). I have always taken that this was for slashing type cuts.

While it would seem to negate the thrusting value, if I have understood correctly, a very sharp radiused tip would still be effective in a thrust, but would have to be sharpened in the full radius as you have noted.

This is an odd hilt though.

Philip · 10th June 2017, 05:06 AM

Actually, fully-sharpened radiused points aren't all that rare on European swords. You see quite a few katzbalgers and Scots basket-hilts in the same configuration. Usually these are well-used blades, and it's my impression that they were fully pointed when they hit the market but got rounded off during extensive use, when the point got chipped and users successively ground away at the flats on either side to restore usable sharpness without removing too much metal from the sides. My experience as a polisher, when receiving a sword with a broken-off tip, is to scribe the original tip outline on what remains with a marker pen, and more often than not, a lot of metal needs to come off to get the original profile back. On various Far Eastern blades that are edge-tempered, you can lose most of the hardness at the extremity that way, which does affect the historical integrity of the piece in addition to its functionality. It calls for a consultation with the customer before I do anything because once the material is removed you can't put it back on!

All else being equal, a pointy tip penetrates easier than a sharpened radius, but there are lots of areas a trained swordsman can aim for that don't take much effort to get in and do damage -- the jugular, armpit, the abdomen under the ribcage, and (eesh) the groin. The first two, along with the area behind the knee, are also difficult to fully protect with armor, and in all these regions, there are vital things just below skin level. (Who was it that said that the proverbial stab through the heart existed mostly in novels, opera, and Hollywood?)

Also, a wider, round or irregular tip makes a nastier wound, not as clean as a poke from an acute one. This is why the Russians put those chisel-shaped tips on their spike bayonets, from the 19th cent. until WW II. Instead of the needle-sharp ones the French, Italians, and Brits used on theirs.

10th June 2017, 05:06 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	rounded tips Actually, fully-sharpened radiused points aren't all that rare on European swords. You see quite a few katzbalgers and Scots basket-hilts in the same configuration. Usually these are well-used blades, and it's my impression that they were fully pointed when they hit the market but got rounded off during extensive use, when the point got chipped and users successively ground away at the flats on either side to restore usable sharpness without removing too much metal from the sides. My experience as a polisher, when receiving a sword with a broken-off tip, is to scribe the original tip outline on what remains with a marker pen, and more often than not, a lot of metal needs to come off to get the original profile back. On various Far Eastern blades that are edge-tempered, you can lose most of the hardness at the extremity that way, which does affect the historical integrity of the piece in addition to its functionality. It calls for a consultation with the customer before I do anything because once the material is removed you can't put it back on! All else being equal, a pointy tip penetrates easier than a sharpened radius, but there are lots of areas a trained swordsman can aim for that don't take much effort to get in and do damage -- the jugular, armpit, the abdomen under the ribcage, and (eesh) the groin. The first two, along with the area behind the knee, are also difficult to fully protect with armor, and in all these regions, there are vital things just below skin level. (Who was it that said that the proverbial stab through the heart existed mostly in novels, opera, and Hollywood?) Also, a wider, round or irregular tip makes a nastier wound, not as clean as a poke from an acute one. This is why the Russians put those chisel-shaped tips on their spike bayonets, from the 19th cent. until WW II. Instead of the needle-sharp ones the French, Italians, and Brits used on theirs.

9th June 2017, 10:02 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Interesting perspective Philip! and of course sounds most likely. If I recall, weren't there many cases of European arming swords as well which had these very fully sharpened radiused points, which were remarkably effective in slashing cuts? It seems as well, in Italian fencing there was a slashing cut (usually to the face) which was termed 'stramazone' and intended to distract the opponent with said wound. I have not located the reference, but seems like somewhat rebated points sharpened in this manner were used. Also, it has always been curious that North African swords such as the takouba always have a 'rounded point' (I believe Omani sa'ifs as well). I have always taken that this was for slashing type cuts. While it would seem to negate the thrusting value, if I have understood correctly, a very sharp radiused tip would still be effective in a thrust, but would have to be sharpened in the full radius as you have noted. This is an odd hilt though.