Another noise maker

[Philip]

Trying to narrow down the chronology is indeed tough on something like this. This is a type of böller, I would think, because its shape calls for it standing upright. Even if the barrel was provided with a socket, or shaped to fit a stock, its conical bore would make it impractical as a projectile weapon. The problem with such a bore is that a ball of any given size would only go down to a certain point, and deciding what point is optimum in relation to the volume of powder is critical from a safety standpoint because if there is any air space in between, excessive pressure can be generated by the explosion, turning the barrel into a little bomb.

As a noisemaker or signal device, the design of such a device can stay unchanged for a very long time. There are three- (or more) barrel versions of these, forged of iron, found in different Far Eastern countries and the ones from 17th cent. Korea can hardly be distinguished from those from 19th cent. Indochina. So the generous range of dates that you suggest is perhaps the most realistic assessment.

[fernando]

Obrigado Filipe .
Actually i have gathered a number of these things, as also of actual hand cannons. I had promised myself ceasing further accumulation but, as i said, i found this one rather appealing.

[Philip]

Wonderful, you must have quite a variety of different styles and sizes. Hopefully you've tried to obtain from the sellers some info as to where they were found, and in what context (ruins, riverbed, possible battle site, etc). That might help answer questions about dates, especially for the hand cannons which must have disappeared from the scene when muskets became available although that process must have been gradual as well. Has anything been published in Portugal about these things? Any academics doing research to your knowledge? Maybe you can work with one of these guys so that we eventually have a published article, at least, about them.

I'm sure that this is not just a crazy idea of mine. Wasn't our late forum colleague, "Matchlock" up in Germany, quite serious about very early firearms as well?

[fernando]

In fact i was adviced by Matchlock in the acquisition of some cannons, both hand an portable. It was also through his knowledge that i could date some of my earliest examples as from the XIV and XV centuries.
But if it is difficult to age these things, is not easier to know their original provenance; most of them were bought in an impersonal manner, from sellers who wouldn't provide their previous track. The best guess is to trust that their origin is that of the country from where we buy them; some from Spain, some from Germany, one from South America and others said to be simply 'European'. The only one i can be pretty sure of is origin was a böller that came from a local church.
I don't think there is any local literature on these devices, either böllers and gonnes. Rainer Daehnhardt has a few interesting ones in his collection, but wrote not treatise abouth this subject that i know of. He has a theory that the earliest Portuguese hand gonnes were used in the battle of Aljubarrota, but i don't think this is more than a theory. But one thing i learnt in our conversations is that upright examples may not only be signal or noise makers but were also used for bellicose purposes, like traps and so. Would have i doubted this assumption they were soon vanished when i found in the web a French device that was destined to perform such job.


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[Philip]

Yes, obtaining provenance info is not possible in many cases when you are buying something casually at an antiques fair, flea market, or shop because the seller may not know. And sometimes when there is a "war story" attached, there is no documentation to back up what may be just hearsay or an assumption. But you can still learn a lot from collecting these things, for instance if you notice elements that are analogous to pieces in collections that do have more or less reliable documentation. Every bit of info counts, even if it only builds a tentative conclusion that's going to be replaced by something more solid later. Are their other collectors in Portugal who specialize in these, with whom you are sharing info and insight?

That multi-barrel "trap" gun is intriguing, and rare to have survived in such condition. Too bad there aren't more images like a side view showing the length and profile of the barrels! And to show us how they were ignited. To me, a trap device is something that is triggered by the thing you want to catch/shoot, so it must stand ready to go off after who-knows-how-long a waiting time. With gonnes, the requirement for a lit matchcord makes this impractical. However, I can see this thing as being of use as a "volley gun" fired by a defender standing behind the gate as the enemy approaches.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

... But you can still learn a lot from collecting these things, for instance if you notice elements that are analogous to pieces in collections that do have more or less reliable documentation...

Yes; that happens once in a while. But no so often with these things; most times what you see are commercial sites, and what they announce is so obviously unreliable.

Originally Posted by Philip

...Are their other collectors in Portugal who specialize in these, with whom you are sharing info and insight?...

No, i am alone in this corner of the world.

Originally Posted by Philip

...That multi-barrel "trap" gun is intriguing, and rare to have survived in such condition. Too bad there aren't more images like a side view showing the length and profile of the barrels! And to show us how they were ignited....

All i recall is that this was a small square French style announcement in an illustrated sales catalogue published in the web ... ages ago.

Originally Posted by Philip

... To me, a trap device is something that is triggered by the thing you want to catch/shoot, so it must stand ready to go off after who-knows-how-long a waiting time...

In the classic modern sense, yes; i had them being activated with me around while in the army. But you often see ancient multi barrel devices in museums and surely they had a way (or ways) to ignite them.

Originally Posted by Philip

...However, I can see this thing as being of use as a "volley gun" fired by a defender standing behind the gate as the enemy approaches.

Rainer also mentioned tricks like them blasting under hard stuff, making it fly like projectiles under the enemy.