American Sword with 1803 Style Cross Guard

Hotspur · 19th May 2017, 01:14 PM

My overall outlook is not that Mowbray and others since draw a parallel to the old floating pommels and those with backstraps but even his thoughts 30 years ago distinguish between the two types in the Ketland chapter, only later in the book bringing up a possibility.

If you peruse my eagle clipboard in the first reply you will see I break up the crested into orig&bck variants of crested pommels. In looking at the ketbck section of my clipboard linked in the second post, you will see a myriad of late attributes of the 30s and 40s using virtually the same pommel with bckstrp. Note in that folder several with 1803 guards and variants of that, along with a very few with old slotted type. Think about it.

If one then moves to the new testament, aka the Norm Flayderman&Stuart Mowbray book of the Medicus Collection, we are presented a more linear outlook with only confirmed origin when available. In the master folder of my first post, note a folder that is listed as Spies. A.W. Spies went to England after the 1812 war as an apprentice, returning to the US as an import retailer in New York City. If you look through both my Spies Folder and the ketbck folder you will see what I mean about the longevity of using up old blue&gilt blades well into the 1840s, still emblazoned with the word Warranted.

Moving on to a folder on my master clipboard is a folder listed as ketscrmng. These are the open mouth screaming eagles copying the 1830s Ames bird. Then the OrigKetFrm folder devoted mostly to the floating pommels of the Ketland chapter in the elder Mowbray's old testament.

So, long story short; Sure, attribute all crested eagles as having a Ketland origin but that is actually foolishness. I use Ket as a prefix in sorting but the realize the immense scope of variance and origin spanning the decades. It was but a single example marked Ketland that dubbed the old floating pommel as the origin but at the same time realize the casting was not by Ketland, who sourced shops throughout Birmingham. A random sword affixed to the Ketland story then spawning the widespread use of guilt by association.

So, we are reviewing the 1803 guarded eagle from several viewpoints but break down the components into the contexts of realities. Parts used up after the war and the development of the crested bckstrp variants. Note that the majority of those better fall into the 1820s regulations of langet type sabres and straight blades, with the bulk of those proving to be much later than the war of 1812.

Cheers

GC

My floater, of the original "Ketland" form

Hotspur · 19th May 2017, 01:43 PM

RE Widmann and the Mowbray book. The example is but one sword, and a suffix to the American maker chapters, not part of the main Widmann chapter. It is easy to lump a page into the pages before or after but it is important to look at each evidence carefully.

Paraphrasing that single page (without going to open the book), that crested bckstrp shown is listed as having a possibility of American furbishing. Bazelon, in an old ASoAC article shows another single example marked to Widmann on the guard.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9A...ew?usp=sharing
British? Maybe. Composite? Composite done by Widmann? A wholly manufactured product of Germany? Widmann did seem prefer German sourced parts. However, I digress. Do though note Bazelon's brief on trade blades.

The Germans copied the British, the British copied Germans, the US bought from both and France (many made in Germany), the British copied the American Ames gaper/screamer, the Germans copied Widmann traits; on and on.

The use of Warranted on Solingen blades seen until iron proof, then proved, then eisenhauer; of course a marketing ploy.

Cheers

GC

Hotspur · 19th May 2017, 03:22 PM

Another gasp here regarding eagles with backstraps. It should be wholly apparent that the introduction of swords with backstraps were nothing new by the advent of the eagle pommel swords. The mechanics of them simply afford a much stronger weapon for practical use.

IIRC, it is in discussion opposite the Dyer eagle pommel where Mowbray mentions the aberration of that same eagle type with backstraps thought to be postwar. Confusion now arrives to me in acquiring one such with a clearly marked Woolley Deakin&Co. That could be an argument (1806ish) that my example disagrees with Mowbray's thoughts but at the same time, my eagle may well have been cast in America and a Woolley blade used later on. It is very hard to be sure, so we are left with trends and other examples of the form.

Was my eagle below assembled in England or in upstate New York?

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall · 19th May 2017, 03:39 PM

Very well explained Glen. Again I very much appreciate your thorough and detailed presentations along with explanations in reasoning out the many assumptions and deviations which may mislead researchers less familiar with these forms.......including myself. Thank you again, it is great to learn more on these important eagle head swords.

19th May 2017, 01:14 PM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 517	My overall outlook is not that Mowbray and others since draw a parallel to the old floating pommels and those with backstraps but even his thoughts 30 years ago distinguish between the two types in the Ketland chapter, only later in the book bringing up a possibility. If you peruse my eagle clipboard in the first reply you will see I break up the crested into orig&bck variants of crested pommels. In looking at the ketbck section of my clipboard linked in the second post, you will see a myriad of late attributes of the 30s and 40s using virtually the same pommel with bckstrp. Note in that folder several with 1803 guards and variants of that, along with a very few with old slotted type. Think about it. If one then moves to the new testament, aka the Norm Flayderman&Stuart Mowbray book of the Medicus Collection, we are presented a more linear outlook with only confirmed origin when available. In the master folder of my first post, note a folder that is listed as Spies. A.W. Spies went to England after the 1812 war as an apprentice, returning to the US as an import retailer in New York City. If you look through both my Spies Folder and the ketbck folder you will see what I mean about the longevity of using up old blue&gilt blades well into the 1840s, still emblazoned with the word Warranted. Moving on to a folder on my master clipboard is a folder listed as ketscrmng. These are the open mouth screaming eagles copying the 1830s Ames bird. Then the OrigKetFrm folder devoted mostly to the floating pommels of the Ketland chapter in the elder Mowbray's old testament. So, long story short; Sure, attribute all crested eagles as having a Ketland origin but that is actually foolishness. I use Ket as a prefix in sorting but the realize the immense scope of variance and origin spanning the decades. It was but a single example marked Ketland that dubbed the old floating pommel as the origin but at the same time realize the casting was not by Ketland, who sourced shops throughout Birmingham. A random sword affixed to the Ketland story then spawning the widespread use of guilt by association. So, we are reviewing the 1803 guarded eagle from several viewpoints but break down the components into the contexts of realities. Parts used up after the war and the development of the crested bckstrp variants. Note that the majority of those better fall into the 1820s regulations of langet type sabres and straight blades, with the bulk of those proving to be much later than the war of 1812. Cheers GC My floater, of the original "Ketland" form Attached Images

19th May 2017, 03:22 PM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 517	Another gasp here regarding eagles with backstraps. It should be wholly apparent that the introduction of swords with backstraps were nothing new by the advent of the eagle pommel swords. The mechanics of them simply afford a much stronger weapon for practical use. IIRC, it is in discussion opposite the Dyer eagle pommel where Mowbray mentions the aberration of that same eagle type with backstraps thought to be postwar. Confusion now arrives to me in acquiring one such with a clearly marked Woolley Deakin&Co. That could be an argument (1806ish) that my example disagrees with Mowbray's thoughts but at the same time, my eagle may well have been cast in America and a Woolley blade used later on. It is very hard to be sure, so we are left with trends and other examples of the form. Was my eagle below assembled in England or in upstate New York? Cheers GC Attached Images

19th May 2017, 01:43 PM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 517	RE Widmann and the Mowbray book. The example is but one sword, and a suffix to the American maker chapters, not part of the main Widmann chapter. It is easy to lump a page into the pages before or after but it is important to look at each evidence carefully. Paraphrasing that single page (without going to open the book), that crested bckstrp shown is listed as having a possibility of American furbishing. Bazelon, in an old ASoAC article shows another single example marked to Widmann on the guard. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9A...ew?usp=sharing British? Maybe. Composite? Composite done by Widmann? A wholly manufactured product of Germany? Widmann did seem prefer German sourced parts. However, I digress. Do though note Bazelon's brief on trade blades. The Germans copied the British, the British copied Germans, the US bought from both and France (many made in Germany), the British copied the American Ames gaper/screamer, the Germans copied Widmann traits; on and on. The use of Warranted on Solingen blades seen until iron proof, then proved, then eisenhauer; of course a marketing ploy. Cheers GC

19th May 2017, 03:39 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,351	Very well explained Glen. Again I very much appreciate your thorough and detailed presentations along with explanations in reasoning out the many assumptions and deviations which may mislead researchers less familiar with these forms.......including myself. Thank you again, it is great to learn more on these important eagle head swords.