Indian pseudoshashka

Tatyana Dianova · 18th May 2017, 07:51 AM

Interesting insightes Jim - as usual from your side!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 18th May 2017, 03:37 PM

By Jim McDougall It is important here to note that the 'tunkou' or for that matter, even the palmette type cuff or langet Mughal items, much in the manner of the tunkou on yataghans or Ottoman weapons, seems to have had stylistic importance beyond any pragmatic purpose.

Salaams Jim, It could be that regarding Tunkou we are looking at a Red Herring. My take on the wrap is that it adds more weight to the power end of the blade and that it secures the weapon in the scabbard far better preventing it from rattling around or falling out.
Thanks for your informative reply..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Gonzalo G · 19th May 2017, 05:26 AM

Interesting thread!

In my humble opinion, the "tunkou" also helps much in reducing the nasty vibrations of the blade when you hit in the wrong manner. This protects the hand and the blade. But I can be wrong. If you don´t want to risk an old sword to test it, try it with a long machete.
Regards

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th May 2017, 05:27 PM

Salaams, I refer to #17 and its main reference when equating Indian swords to Chinese. I would temper that with what Jim has said about Tunkou.
My main reference is http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom3.html

The article notes a fashion in Chinese swords and close ties with sword influence going both ways. Swords made in Beijing were exported to India after 1761 . Further ..a common description amongst Chinese sword design was the pistol grip which is essentially the same as the bird head or parrot head hilt. Note also the practice of cutting grooves in the blade and inserting pearls which roll up and down the grooves; This is a direct copy from Indian blades of that form; Tears of the wounded (afflicted)

Shown in addition is the trend in Indian blades; both sword and dagger, of decorating the throat with a cartouche done in Koftgari form but that in the project sword this is of Tunkou style essentially a reinforcement plate giving support to the hilt and enabling a tighter fit for the blade into the scabbard....something koftgari design does not do...nor was it designed to.

I accept as Gonzalo points out that the wrap would also have reduced heavy vibration through to the sword hand and as I point out the practical idea that the blade would fit better and more snugly into the scabbard...also noted in #17.

Given that in the late 1700s Chinese swords were exported to India it stands to reason that the Tunkou was in fact part of this design imported on these weapons but turned the other way...perhaps to satisfy Indian taste from purely an aesthetic viewpoint as it looked better? Whilst it seems logical it is understood that nothing is certain in this regard and that it may be down to simple design drift and this is simply parallel development or pure chance...and may be how some swords in the South were designed...Kastane often have a similar wrap.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th May 2017, 09:55 PM

Hello Ibrahiim,
Could you please give us a few references to the Chinese export of blades/weapons to India?
Jens

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st May 2017, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hello Ibrahiim,
Could you please give us a few references to the Chinese export of blades/weapons to India?
Jens

Whilst I search for that please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...XPORTS&f=false which outlines the goods including sword blades that were exported to China from India in 1793.

* Ho & Bronson 2004 p111
"... the [Qianlong] emperor appears to have been quite fond of non-traditional curved sabers of the Indian and Middle Eastern type, often furnished with jade hilts carved in the Indian Mughal style. Some were imitations made in the imperial armory in Beijing."

* Ho & Bronson 2004 p114 f127
"Qianlong ordered a total of sixty ceremonial curved swords on five occasions, in 1748, 1757, 1779, 1793, and 1795. Each sword was named and numbered, and all were identical in length, weight, and basic design. The scabbards were made either of red or green stingray skin and or patterned bark. The swords differed in terms of their inlaid details and the style of the hilts. Hilts made after completion of the 1757 batch were mostly in Mughal style, often with gold and inlaid gems."Unquote.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st May 2017, 09:46 PM

Thank you very much, and it is quite interesting that the trade went both ways - from very early times.
I know of three dagger blades all with the same decoration, one at a museum in China, one in the MET and one in my collection.
Of these two have a pistol grip, and the one in the MET has a grip with a horse head - but all have a stone hilt.

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2017, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Whilst I search for that please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...XPORTS&f=false which outlines the goods including sword blades that were exported to China from India in 1793.

* Ho & Bronson 2004 p111
"... the [Qianlong] emperor appears to have been quite fond of non-traditional curved sabers of the Indian and Middle Eastern type, often furnished with jade hilts carved in the Indian Mughal style. Some were imitations made in the imperial armory in Beijing."

* Ho & Bronson 2004 p114 f127
"Qianlong ordered a total of sixty ceremonial curved swords on five occasions, in 1748, 1757, 1779, 1793, and 1795. Each sword was named and numbered, and all were identical in length, weight, and basic design. The scabbards were made either of red or green stingray skin and or patterned bark. The swords differed in terms of their inlaid details and the style of the hilts. Hilts made after completion of the 1757 batch were mostly in Mughal style, often with gold and inlaid gems."Unquote.

It seems that this trade network bringing China and India together as far as exchange of blades went even earlier:

"...blades from China and India were highly sought after in the Middle East, which seems to have been the hub of an astonishing international trade in sword blades, amongst many other items".
* during 14th and through 15th centuries and later

"The Medieval Swords of Leeds Castle"
-Clive Thomas
"London Park Lane Arms Fair, 2005" p.26

18th May 2017, 07:51 AM	#1
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 741	Interesting insightes Jim - as usual from your side!

18th May 2017, 03:37 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	By Jim McDougall It is important here to note that the 'tunkou' or for that matter, even the palmette type cuff or langet Mughal items, much in the manner of the tunkou on yataghans or Ottoman weapons, seems to have had stylistic importance beyond any pragmatic purpose. Salaams Jim, It could be that regarding Tunkou we are looking at a Red Herring. My take on the wrap is that it adds more weight to the power end of the blade and that it secures the weapon in the scabbard far better preventing it from rattling around or falling out. Thanks for your informative reply.. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

19th May 2017, 05:26 AM	#3
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Interesting thread! In my humble opinion, the "tunkou" also helps much in reducing the nasty vibrations of the blade when you hit in the wrong manner. This protects the hand and the blade. But I can be wrong. If you don´t want to risk an old sword to test it, try it with a long machete. Regards

20th May 2017, 05:27 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams, I refer to #17 and its main reference when equating Indian swords to Chinese. I would temper that with what Jim has said about Tunkou. My main reference is http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom3.html The article notes a fashion in Chinese swords and close ties with sword influence going both ways. Swords made in Beijing were exported to India after 1761 . Further ..a common description amongst Chinese sword design was the pistol grip which is essentially the same as the bird head or parrot head hilt. Note also the practice of cutting grooves in the blade and inserting pearls which roll up and down the grooves; This is a direct copy from Indian blades of that form; Tears of the wounded (afflicted) Shown in addition is the trend in Indian blades; both sword and dagger, of decorating the throat with a cartouche done in Koftgari form but that in the project sword this is of Tunkou style essentially a reinforcement plate giving support to the hilt and enabling a tighter fit for the blade into the scabbard....something koftgari design does not do...nor was it designed to. I accept as Gonzalo points out that the wrap would also have reduced heavy vibration through to the sword hand and as I point out the practical idea that the blade would fit better and more snugly into the scabbard...also noted in #17. Given that in the late 1700s Chinese swords were exported to India it stands to reason that the Tunkou was in fact part of this design imported on these weapons but turned the other way...perhaps to satisfy Indian taste from purely an aesthetic viewpoint as it looked better? Whilst it seems logical it is understood that nothing is certain in this regard and that it may be down to simple design drift and this is simply parallel development or pure chance...and may be how some swords in the South were designed...Kastane often have a similar wrap. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

20th May 2017, 09:55 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hello Ibrahiim, Could you please give us a few references to the Chinese export of blades/weapons to India? Jens

21st May 2017, 09:46 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you very much, and it is quite interesting that the trade went both ways - from very early times. I know of three dagger blades all with the same decoration, one at a museum in China, one in the MET and one in my collection. Of these two have a pistol grip, and the one in the MET has a grip with a horse head - but all have a stone hilt.