Assistance please

Sajen · 11th May 2017, 09:32 PM

Hello Alan,

the first one I've seen described as Genovese dagger, see for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=genovese
The other one could be from Spain IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 12th May 2017, 05:40 AM

Thank you for your opinions gentlemen.

I'll accept hunting dagger, but it really seems more suited to something other than that, I have hunted all my life, including chasing wild pigs on foot, and killing them with spears and bayonets, and I just cannot understand how a dagger like this could be used to kill game. I guess you could finish off something that was already down, maybe drive it through an ear, or an eye --- provided the animal didn't kick around too much, but this is a purely stabbing implement, you couldn't do the quick , kind thing and cut its throat.

I'll try to have a look at Czerny's when I get a chance, Marius, in fact I've never visited their site.

kronckew · 12th May 2017, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you for your opinions gentlemen.

I'll accept hunting dagger, but it really seems more suited to something other than that, I have hunted all my life, including chasing wild pigs on foot, and killing them with spears and bayonets, and I just cannot understand how a dagger like this could be used to kill game. I guess you could finish off something that was already down, maybe drive it through an ear, or an eye --- provided the animal didn't kick around too much, but this is a purely stabbing implement, you couldn't do the quick , kind thing and cut its throat.

...

i'd bet that a well decorated 'hunting' sword or dagger/knife would be carried by a noble as part of his 'hunting' outfit, and who would have retainers and servants to do the actual dirty work. a more active noble who wanted to engage in DIY might carry or borrow a more useful version from someone if he wanted to actually insert it into an animal.

he wouldn't want to have any actual wear on his, that would be so declasse. the bottom one with the patinated real blade might fill that role, nice fancy handle for his more senior retainers to show his lord can afford to equip them nicely, but a functional blade for someone who would be required to actually use it.

those of a more sensitive nature or under 18 please look away now.

.

fernando · 12th May 2017, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i'd bet that a well decorated 'hunting' sword or dagger/knife would be carried by a noble as part of his 'hunting' outfit, and who would have retainers and servants to do the actual dirty work...

Fully agreed, Waine; my previous pointing out the allegoric purpose wasn't properly a well expressed adjective

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... those of a more sensitive nature or under 18 please look away now...

Or perhaps a better idea would be leaving such 'descriptive & illustrated' part for more specialized venues on the subject, don't you think

.

A. G. Maisey · 12th May 2017, 01:09 PM

Yes, I think I see where you're coming from Kronckew:- item of dress, not to actually terminate any animal, but rather as a part of what a lord might wear whilst hunting.

This is a new idea to me. It is not something that fits into the context of Javanese/Balinese lords hunting behaviour, and apart from my own society, these are only ones I know in any depth.

I think what I'm being told here is that European lords would ride out to go a-hunting, but they actually would do not much more than point a firearm and pull the trigger, the underlings would do the wet work.

Interesting concept.

Maybe a dagger like this was used to encourage the faithful retainers to be faithful.

fernando · 12th May 2017, 03:33 PM

Analogue situations in Iberian nobility terms. You would bet the blades of these hunting dagger/bayonets never saw daylight ... let alone hunting action.
(Toledo 1859 &1863)

.

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2017, 10:53 PM

Thank you for your responses gentlemen.

The very high quality double edge dagger is a hunting dagger. Probably used by the lord to prod his helpers into the scrum to finish off the raging boar. I'm convinced.

But the other one?

Detlef reckons Genovese, or maybe it is a hunting knife too? Perhaps not a knife with a specific purpose, but just a personal knife?

It is a nice size for a knife that one could carry day in, day out, to slice up the cheese, the salami and the people who cheated at cards.

Don't forget that even though the fork was in use by about the 4th century in Rome, and was in common usage across Italy by the 1600's, in other parts of Europe it took another couple of hundred years to gain universal favour. I guess because Italians eat more pasta than Frenchmen and Englishmen. Anyway, in most of Europe the personal knife was indispensable right through until modern policing methods made them something to be avoided.

Maybe this knife with the holes in the ricasso was just a personal knife?

12th May 2017, 03:33 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Analogue situations in Iberian nobility terms. You would bet the blades of these hunting dagger/bayonets never saw daylight ... let alone hunting action. (Toledo 1859 &1863) . Attached Images

11th May 2017, 09:32 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hello Alan, the first one I've seen described as Genovese dagger, see for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=genovese The other one could be from Spain IMVHO. Regards, Detlef

12th May 2017, 05:40 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Thank you for your opinions gentlemen. I'll accept hunting dagger, but it really seems more suited to something other than that, I have hunted all my life, including chasing wild pigs on foot, and killing them with spears and bayonets, and I just cannot understand how a dagger like this could be used to kill game. I guess you could finish off something that was already down, maybe drive it through an ear, or an eye --- provided the animal didn't kick around too much, but this is a purely stabbing implement, you couldn't do the quick , kind thing and cut its throat. I'll try to have a look at Czerny's when I get a chance, Marius, in fact I've never visited their site.

12th May 2017, 01:09 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yes, I think I see where you're coming from Kronckew:- item of dress, not to actually terminate any animal, but rather as a part of what a lord might wear whilst hunting. This is a new idea to me. It is not something that fits into the context of Javanese/Balinese lords hunting behaviour, and apart from my own society, these are only ones I know in any depth. I think what I'm being told here is that European lords would ride out to go a-hunting, but they actually would do not much more than point a firearm and pull the trigger, the underlings would do the wet work. Interesting concept. Maybe a dagger like this was used to encourage the faithful retainers to be faithful.

15th May 2017, 10:53 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Thank you for your responses gentlemen. The very high quality double edge dagger is a hunting dagger. Probably used by the lord to prod his helpers into the scrum to finish off the raging boar. I'm convinced. But the other one? Detlef reckons Genovese, or maybe it is a hunting knife too? Perhaps not a knife with a specific purpose, but just a personal knife? It is a nice size for a knife that one could carry day in, day out, to slice up the cheese, the salami and the people who cheated at cards. Don't forget that even though the fork was in use by about the 4th century in Rome, and was in common usage across Italy by the 1600's, in other parts of Europe it took another couple of hundred years to gain universal favour. I guess because Italians eat more pasta than Frenchmen and Englishmen. Anyway, in most of Europe the personal knife was indispensable right through until modern policing methods made them something to be avoided. Maybe this knife with the holes in the ricasso was just a personal knife?