Nice karabela hitled shamshir

ham · 7th March 2006, 09:21 AM

I'm afraid it's a rather poor modern copy.
If you look carefully at the elements, you will see they are all drawn from different types of sword as well as from different periods...

Ham

ariel · 7th March 2006, 11:43 AM

As a matter of fact, I wanted to post the same one for discussion, but.. heck! the glory goes to Valjhun!
I fully agree with Ham: the silver crossguard is very Polish (Wolviex, can you hear me? Come and judge us!), but looks perfectly pristine. Nary a scratch!
The handle is wood (could it have been so well preserved over the years?) and the incisions are very crude and not worn out. The blade has a Persian Qajar stamp dating it 20th century at the latest (I would not argue against 21st....)
This sword saw as much action on the battlefield as my wife's manicure scissors. My guess it is a modern souvenir from Poland.
That is fine, I have nothing against mementos (bought enough tee shirts and keychains myself), but for that price they could have thrown at least a case of Wyborowa into a deal!

wolviex · 7th March 2006, 12:49 PM

Well...., I'm a little surprised of your Polish plot Ariel, I didn't think about it that way, at first glance. What do you mean by "modern souvenir"? - if you mean made within last 50-10 years, then I would be sceptical, though I don't know the tourist market very well. I would be surprised if someone wanted to sell as souvenir sabre with Persian marks, until it is one or one of very few examples to cheat someone. What you can buy today are almost only those sabres where you can find strictly Polish inscriptions. But who knows? Anyway the hilt might look Polish, but it could be from anywhere else too. Such hilts, made of silver, often with not high quality engravings are seen in Polish karabelas from the 2nd half of the 19th century. The motif of the little flowers was in use in Polish armament from the ca. beginning of the 18th century, as an influence of Persian art. But all of these doesn't exclude the possibility of other country origin, in my opinion. There are no real Polish features that could tell us for sure it was/is souvenir from this beautiful country. Maybe the blade is misleading me... but I just don't feel the National spirit in this sabre

. Just might be, but nothing for sure.

ariel · 7th March 2006, 01:19 PM

You might be right (I am sure you are!) about my Polish allusions. It might be of Turkish, Iranian or Syrian manufacture. I just prefer Wyborowa to Arak

No matter what, I do not believe this sword is really old.

M.carter · 7th March 2006, 01:42 PM

When I went to Syria in 2004, I saw many blades like this one, with fake Persian stamps, all newly made, but with horrible quality. Though I must say I never encountered any hilt like this in any bazaar over there.

ham · 8th March 2006, 06:35 PM

Ariel,

First off, bravo Wyborowa but if you are going to bring up arak please specify good Turkish raki, the noblest of licorice intoxicants, eh?

Well observed on this sword. The guard however, is not silver, it is cast aluminium or pewter.

The blade is entirely suspect as well-- it may also be cast metal (did anyone think to have the seller put a magnet to it for that amount of money?) or the marks were applied with acid or machine tools.
The grips are absolutely fresh wood, even the rivets show no wear.

The quality of work coming out of Damascus is above this, they are lavishing things both old and new with koftgari and are beginning to get the hilt and scabbard elements right.

This sword was probably made in India or perhaps in E. Europe (sorry for that, Michal.) Wherever a market exists, some enterprising sort will try to fill it, be it Tanjore or Tbilisi.

Emptors must really caveat these days.

Ham

M.carter · 8th March 2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Ariel,

The quality of work coming out of Damascus is above this, they are lavishing things both old and new with koftgari and are beginning to get the hilt and scabbard elements right.

Ham

Ofcourse Ham this not to say that all whats coming out of damascus is junk. Some swords there are one piece masterpeices, which sell for $20000+, some are very good, histrically accurate, functional swords. Other, like this one (if its indeed a fake), are simply junk, with cast blades and acid etched marks. I was smart enough to take a magnet with me to Syria, and many blades, like this one, did not attract...

7th March 2006, 12:49 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	hmmm.... Well...., I'm a little surprised of your Polish plot Ariel, I didn't think about it that way, at first glance. What do you mean by "modern souvenir"? - if you mean made within last 50-10 years, then I would be sceptical, though I don't know the tourist market very well. I would be surprised if someone wanted to sell as souvenir sabre with Persian marks, until it is one or one of very few examples to cheat someone. What you can buy today are almost only those sabres where you can find strictly Polish inscriptions. But who knows? Anyway the hilt might look Polish, but it could be from anywhere else too. Such hilts, made of silver, often with not high quality engravings are seen in Polish karabelas from the 2nd half of the 19th century. The motif of the little flowers was in use in Polish armament from the ca. beginning of the 18th century, as an influence of Persian art. But all of these doesn't exclude the possibility of other country origin, in my opinion. There are no real Polish features that could tell us for sure it was/is souvenir from this beautiful country. Maybe the blade is misleading me... but I just don't feel the National spirit in this sabre . Just might be, but nothing for sure.

7th March 2006, 09:21 AM	#1
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	I'm afraid it's a rather poor modern copy. If you look carefully at the elements, you will see they are all drawn from different types of sword as well as from different periods... Ham

7th March 2006, 11:43 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As a matter of fact, I wanted to post the same one for discussion, but.. heck! the glory goes to Valjhun! I fully agree with Ham: the silver crossguard is very Polish (Wolviex, can you hear me? Come and judge us!), but looks perfectly pristine. Nary a scratch! The handle is wood (could it have been so well preserved over the years?) and the incisions are very crude and not worn out. The blade has a Persian Qajar stamp dating it 20th century at the latest (I would not argue against 21st....) This sword saw as much action on the battlefield as my wife's manicure scissors. My guess it is a modern souvenir from Poland. That is fine, I have nothing against mementos (bought enough tee shirts and keychains myself), but for that price they could have thrown at least a case of Wyborowa into a deal!

7th March 2006, 01:19 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You might be right (I am sure you are!) about my Polish allusions. It might be of Turkish, Iranian or Syrian manufacture. I just prefer Wyborowa to Arak No matter what, I do not believe this sword is really old.

7th March 2006, 01:42 PM	#5
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	When I went to Syria in 2004, I saw many blades like this one, with fake Persian stamps, all newly made, but with horrible quality. Though I must say I never encountered any hilt like this in any bazaar over there.

8th March 2006, 06:35 PM	#6
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Ariel, First off, bravo Wyborowa but if you are going to bring up arak please specify good Turkish raki, the noblest of licorice intoxicants, eh? Well observed on this sword. The guard however, is not silver, it is cast aluminium or pewter. The blade is entirely suspect as well-- it may also be cast metal (did anyone think to have the seller put a magnet to it for that amount of money?) or the marks were applied with acid or machine tools. The grips are absolutely fresh wood, even the rivets show no wear. The quality of work coming out of Damascus is above this, they are lavishing things both old and new with koftgari and are beginning to get the hilt and scabbard elements right. This sword was probably made in India or perhaps in E. Europe (sorry for that, Michal.) Wherever a market exists, some enterprising sort will try to fill it, be it Tanjore or Tbilisi. Emptors must really caveat these days. Ham