Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 7th May 2017, 07:01 PM   #1
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 417
Default

On internet (at work ).
At this auction there was far too much competition for me, I didn't have anything.
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2017, 08:09 PM   #2
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,273
Default

Quite interesting.

In van Zonneveld's book there is a somewhat similar blade depicted and named as "Kudi Tranchang" from Bali on page 76. Regarding the name, please read the post #21 here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=tranchang

I agree, that the blade has a strong Balinese flavor, yet the handle absolutely not. They look nice together, yet the combination is in some way cross-cultural. Similar handles we could find on Sulawesi, Java and Sumatra, perhaps even Malay Peninsula.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2017, 05:48 PM   #3
Dominique
Member
 
Dominique's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Paris
Posts: 21
Default

I agree Gustav the pamor looks Balinese, and the blade shape does look similar to Zonneveld kudi, however the Zonneveled item is a balinese ceremonial axe with a much wider blade.
The hilt shape reminds me of the Aceh Co Jang, and interestingly the back of the blades have similar chiseling close to the hilt.
Attached Images
   
Dominique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2017, 03:37 AM   #4
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,211
Default

Can someone tell me why this is a klewang?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2017, 01:09 PM   #5
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,273
Default

It isn't mainly the Pamor, which allows to think of Bali as the very possible origin of the blade.

As I wrote, such overall shape of handle is found in many places in SEAsia. Important - it's faceted, and such feature is more likely distinctive for Sulawesi and West Java. Yet I don't think it's the appropriate handle for this blade.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2017, 01:49 PM   #6
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,211
Default

Still wondering why we are calling this a klewang. It doesn't look like any form of klewang i am familiar with.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2017, 01:55 PM   #7
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,255
Wink

Hello David,

It is not a klewang as the name is understood on Java nor, obviously, the Dutch-Indo military klewang.

In most other regions the name klewang (including spelling variants) is utilized in a much wider sense (and even contradicting the Javanese definition), usually for somewhat tip-heavy blades.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2017, 03:37 PM   #8
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,255
Post

Hello Gustav,

I also believe this is a variant (with slightly more curved tip) of the blade published by Paravicini (1923; reproduced in AvZ, Fig. 295) which also belongs to the pengentas family of blades from Bali. IMVHO it is likely to also have been utilized in the funeral rites.


Quote:
As I wrote, such overall shape of handle is found in many places in SEAsia. Important - it's faceted, and such feature is more likely distinctive for Sulawesi and West Java.
Faceted hilts are really rare (except for the quite different Sundanese gobang hilts). I'd love to see a close contender from anywhere in the archipelago!


Quote:
Yet I don't think it's the appropriate handle for this blade.
Dominique, are there any signs that this blade has been rehilted?

We know that there is a variety of hilts (and blades) associated with the tiuk/blakas pengentas family of blades. Since this blade lends itself to hacking and possibly also pulling action, I reckon that a hilt which avoids slipping may help. Thus, it might be the function leading to an unusual hilt: Barring any new evidence to the contrary, I'd be inclined to believe that this hilt originated from Bali (or Lombok), too.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2017, 07:44 PM   #9
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,228
Default

The construction of the ferrule gives me the impression that the ferrule is more recent than the handle and surely more recent than the blade.

Best regards,
Willem
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2017, 03:02 PM   #10
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,255
Post

Hello Dominique,

What are the total and blade length of your piece?


Quote:
The hilt shape reminds me of the Aceh Co Jang, and interestingly the back of the blades have similar chiseling close to the hilt.
Incidentally, there is the gliwang=k(e)lewang pucok meukawet from the greater Aceh region characterised by a blade with strongly down-curving tip; however, this is a long blade for fighting only. From the same area hails the sadeueb (basically a billhook with a long, round hilt of approx. same length as the blade); this is obviously a tool that can double as a weapon if needed. Despite a roughly similar outline, these Aceh blades are quite different in detail as well as in the iron/steel utilized.

I'd also argue that the similarity of the hilt of your piece and the hulu tapa guda from northern Sumatra is spurious: It has the same function to keep the hand from slipping off the hilt; however, your piece does not show any stylistic key features that would indicate an origin from the greater Aceh region.

Also the chiseling at the base of the blade is quite distinct: In your blade the base of the back of the blade has a protrusion which seems to correspond with the possible Garuda head/beak as found on most tiuk pengentas from Bali; also the decoration at the vertical base of the blade is typical Bali work as is the pamor.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2017, 06:10 AM   #11
Dominique
Member
 
Dominique's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Paris
Posts: 21
Default

Hi,
Thank you for your inputs.
The blade length is 46cm, the hilth is 18cm. The blade is very sharp and sturdy.
It does not seem to be recently refitted and the ferrule fits well the blade and the hilt. The hilt has 7 facets.
There is a number (990) on the top of the hilt, which looks like an inventory number. I assume it was part of an old collection.
The are similarities with the "Batek" page 339 of Keris di Lombok.
Dominique
Dominique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2017, 07:32 AM   #12
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,990
Default

The groove is a pretty common feature Gustav, we can find it on all sorts of edged implements in both Jawa and Bali, as well as other places.

Incidentally, I'm not pushing the barrow for Jawa origin with this thing, I'm just relating what I've seen. I've never seen one of these things in Jawa, I have in Bali, but the overall impression I get of it is Jawa.

Gustav, the P339 pic in Keris Lombok is of something that in Bali is called a "blakas pengentas", essentially it is a tool, but these days it tends to get used more in cremation ceremonies. Different people use different names for all these curved implements, sometimes it will be a blakas, sometimes a pengentas, sometimes a mardhik, sometimes a caluk, sometimes a blakas whatever, whatever, whatever. All these primarily agricultural implements were used as weapons and had special weapon versions. Same as in Jawa.

The pic on P.338 is actually something that most people would call a pedang, but the name here is given as "berang" or "golok" . In fact, it cannot be either, because it is simply not heavy enough and the form is certainly not anything like the Javanese berang which is a type of wedung with a short, heavy, chopping blade.

The desire of collectors to stick names on things is not limited to collectors in the western world. Lalu Djelengga did live in Lombok, but he was primarily a collector.

The simple fact of the matter is this:- we are dealing with a society that uses a non-standard language. Things vary. Names of things vary. It is a language designed for verbal communication, not written communication, the important thing is that the person you are speaking with understands you. This is a bit hard to accept for people who base their communication on writing and refer to dictionaries and thesauruses.

What I've seen happen when it comes to naming an object is that the name will change depending upon how it is being used right at that moment, for example, take a large kitchen knife, when it is being used to slice meat or vegetables in the kitchen it will be a "pisau" (piso), when it is taken outside the house to prune a prickly bush it will be a "golok".

As far as I'm concerned, the name for this implement under discussion is "mardhik". I do not know with certainty its geographic point of origin, but since it displays what I understand to be both Javanese and Balinese indicators, I am inclined to place it as either East Jawa or West Bali.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th May 2017, 08:35 AM   #13
Dominique
Member
 
Dominique's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Paris
Posts: 21
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
I'm not pushing the barrow for Jawa origin with this thing, I'm just relating what I've seen. I've never seen one of these things in Jawa, I have in Bali, but the overall impression I get of it is Jawa...I am inclined to place it as either East Jawa or West Bali.
Thank you Alan, for your explanations. This "mardhik" to call it by your suggested name, was sold at an auction with several old keris from East and North Jawa, and a couple from Bali, which would tend to confirm your inclination towards Jawa.
Dominique is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.