Comments will be appreciated, Berger collection

[Marcus]

Recently I have been focused on collecting weapons that fall into the ethnographic category but today I participated in an auction of European weapons from the Berger collection), so I would greatly appreciate comments, especially related to age and origin of the four pieces I won. To make sure that the photos stay in register with the texts provided by the auction site (and the Google translations) I will post each one in this thread separately.

Item 1
(a plug bayonet, I assume)

Lama incisa con scene di caccia e trofei (ossidazioni), eleganti fornimenti in argento, impugnatura in osso. Ottime condizioni, manca il puntale del fodero._x0000_ L. 56 cm.

Blade engraved with hunting scenes and trophies (oxidation), elegant silver plating, bone handle. Great condition, missing the tip of the sheath._x0000_ L. 56 cm.

[Marcus]

Lama ad un filo e mezzo sgusciata al centro e cesellata con fogliami e figure di cavallo e leoni al tallone, impugnatura formata da dischi in osso di diverso colore, ghiere in metallo bianco incise. Eccellenti condizioni, lievi ossidazioni._x0000_ L. 40,5 cm.

A half-and-a-half threaded blade in the center and chiselled with foliage and horse figures and lion on the heel, handle made of bone disks of different color, engraved engraved metal rings. Excellent condition, slight oxidation._x0000_ L. 40.5 cm.

[Marcus]

Lama a doppio filo scanalata e incisa al tallone con rimessi in ottone, impugnatura anch'essa decorata a placche e girali. Ottime condizioni, lievi difetti._x0000_ L. 34,5 cm.

Double fluted blade, engraved on the heel with brass rims, grip decorated with plaques and balls. Good conditions, slight defects._x0000_ L. 34.5 cm.

[Marcus]

Lama a doppio filo decorata con la scritta "NON TI FIDAR DI ME SE COR NON AI", tallone inciso e cesellato con figure di militari e in cartiglio le sigle "GGV", impugnatura tortile in corno con ghiere in metallo bianco. Eccellenti condizioni, lievi difetti._x0000_ L. 50 cm.

Double threaded blade decorated with the inscription "DO NOT FIDAR ME IF COR NOT AI", engraved and chiselled heel with military figures and cartouche the "GGV" markings, horn torsion grip with white metal ring. Excellent conditions, slight defects._x0000_ L. 50 cm.

[fernando]

Hi Marcus,
My atempt ...

First one a nice plug bayonet, in principle Germanic, due to its typical shell guard. Would be nice to see close up pictures, specially of the guard. Could it be XVIII century ??.
Second one a typical hunting knife from South Italy. I have a similar one. Beg. XIX century.
Fourth one a bandit (?) knife, with a motto probably with a couple misspelings… or in some Italian dialect. It could mean something like “don’t trust me if you have no heart” … but don’t trust my translation either. Also nice to see close ups of the guy in the blade ricasso.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

Fourth one a bandit (?) knife, with a motto probably with a couple misspelings… or in some Italian dialect. It could mean something like “don’t trust me if you have no heart” … but don’t trust my translation either. Also nice to see close ups of the guy in the blade ricasso.

Somehow it looks like its hilt work resembles that of first example from South Italy ... you know, where the grip meets the blade. .

[Marcus]

I will certainly post some decent pictures once I have them in hand!

[corrado26]

In my opinion item 2 to item 4 came from Liguria/northern Italy. This typ of daggers came up in the 17. and 18. century in Genua and was to be found on the isles (Sardinia/Korsika) and partly in south eastern Spain.
corrado26

[fernando]

As i said, when i acquired mine, it was assumed to be from Meridional Italy.
I am aware of these knives being also credited to Liguria but, according to known Italian websites (and not only), they are attributed to Southern Italy. I ignore whether there are similar works from both regions with only slight variations or this is a dispute between opinion sources. Let them both be happy .
Here are pictures of mine, if Marcus doesn't mind .


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[Marcus]

Very nice.
The auction was sponsored by San Giorgia, who also sell a book " Il Costello Genovese" that was mentioned in this thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Coltello

I have a copy on order We have Italian Post-Doc in the lab who should be able to help me with the text.

[fernando]

I should be nice to learn how to distinguish Ligurian (Genovese) knives from those of the South. Interesting to note that Sardinia, where the Genovese type seems to have reached (per corrado), is so Meridional as Southern Italy mainland. Actually another Italian auctioner also from the North (Czerny's), from where my example (indirectly) came, treats these types as Southern, while other sources calls them Meridian, a similar regional attribution. A pity that in "Armi Bianche dal Mediebo all'Eta Moderna" (post #17 of Marcus quoted thread) both Marcus item #2 as well as my example are not shown in their true shape... at least to my eyes .

BTW
Spanish (Albacete) knives, those that so many people out there confuses with plug bayonets, are different animals, of course.


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[fernando]

Another example


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[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
This knife of mine is from the very end of the 18thC, European manufacture for the South American market. The similarities with E on Fernando's chart, the Spanish knife, are easy to see. This form appears to have had a relatively long life span.
Regards,
Norman.

[corrado26]

The Czerny designation is absolutely correct for this type of knife/dagger, but the dagger shown differs widely from the daggers of Genua origin in my post!
corrado26

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

The Czerny designation is absolutely correct for this type of knife/dagger, but the dagger shown differs widely from the daggers of Genua origin in my post!
corrado26

However corrado, the point in question is that, this is the same type as that of Marcus item 2, as pointed out in my post #5 .

[corrado26]

Sorry Fernando, but the dagger in post #5 is in my opinion coming from the coast of Liguria.
The Czerny dagger has a totally other blade and resembles more the later Spanish knifes of Albacete. As I wrote before, such daggers were to be found on the isles of Sardinia and Korsika and partly in south eastern Spain too.
But perhaps I am totally wrong and always perpared to learn new things.
corrado26

[fernando]

There was no picture in post #5 but only my atempt to identify Marcus item 2.
I am no expert in these things; was only making some association between Italian hunting knives out there plus my own example, with that of Marcus. I realize all three have the same blade approach. But i wouldn't resist any knowledgeable verdict.


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[fernando]

And by the way, i confess i am not fond of including in this Italian knives typology, the so called traditional Albacete cuchillos. But again, i know that i know nothing .


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[corrado26]

Ok, this was my mistake, I thought of the dagger in post #4

Originally Posted by fernando

And by the way, i confess i am not fond of including in this Italian knives typology, the so called traditional Albacete daggers.

It was not my intention to say that the daggers in question are coming from Spain, what I said is that the daggers in #4 are coming from the Ligurian coast and that the blades in your last post are more those of knifes than the typical Ligurian daggers. And by the way: The early Albacete daggers have in my eyes a certain resemblance to the ones of Liguria. So in my opinion they are - as I said before - at least influenced by the Italian pieces.
corrado26

[fernando]

Originally Posted by corrado26

... The early Albacete daggers have in my eyes a certain resemblance to the ones of Liguria. So in my opinion they are - as I said before - at least influenced by the Italian pieces.
corrado26

Or the other way round, corrado ? We know that they make cutlery in Albacete since the XV century; and they are said to have inherited North African moors techniques. And we also know that Southern Italy has been under Spanish domain from right after that period. It would take time to check on this .

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by fernando

Or the other way round, corrado ? .

Possibly you are right!!
corrado26

[Marcus]

Thank you all for the comments and helpful additional illustrations. I have been traveling the past few days and so have not been able to find time to comment.

The drop point blade of number 2 puts me in mind of American Bowie knives, many of which, like the example shown, were made in England.

The knife shown by Norman, resembling the Spanish form, is also like those from the Canary Islands.

I include also a picture of my Albacete.

[Marcus]

I am posting pictures in a new thread.