Planning to make a wrongko

Johan van Zyl · 1st May 2017, 10:25 AM

I'm obliged, Rick! In considering the work still to be done, I'm fretting a little bit about joining the gandar to the gambar. Like Alan has said, a butt joint on its own is a bad idea. I have considered the correct method kindly explained by Alan, but I'm wondering if I could get a nice solid attachment by drilling a few holes into the gandar, inserting some brass pins and glueing them into place with their ends protruding, and then marking them against the opposite face of the gambar, drilling holes to accept the pins. When the two pieces are brought together for epoxy glueing, the pins are themselves glued and slid into the holes. (The pins needn't be brass, they can be bambu too.)

I am of the opinion that this joint on any keris scabbard is its weakest point. Making the scabbard out of a single piece of wood would certainly make that spot stronger - I recall reading that this has been done; however, I don't recall ever seeing a scabbard without a join line at that point.

That said, my good wife is of the opinion that I sometimes don't recall all that well...

Johan van Zyl · 1st May 2017, 10:35 AM

Thanks, Gustav! I need all the advice I can get. Much obliged.

kai · 1st May 2017, 01:21 PM

Hello Johan,

Sorry for coming in late!

Quote:

I have considered the correct method kindly explained by Alan, but I'm wondering if I could get a nice solid attachment by drilling a few holes into the gandar, inserting some brass pins and glueing them into place with their ends protruding, and then marking them against the opposite face of the gambar, drilling holes to accept the pins. When the two pieces are brought together for epoxy glueing, the pins are themselves glued and slid into the holes. (The pins needn't be brass, they can be bambu too.)

Since the gandar is made of rather thin (and traditionally lighter) wood, securing by pins would not really be robust enough for use. Usually the gandar has protruding "lips" which are easy and robust to fix a gambar/sampir to. You could try to attach some replacement on the inside of the gandar which will be easier and more stable to fix the crosspiece to.

I'm with Gustav on stylistic considerations.

Quote:

I am of the opinion that this joint on any keris scabbard is its weakest point. Making the scabbard out of a single piece of wood would certainly make that spot stronger - I recall reading that this has been done; however, I don't recall ever seeing a scabbard without a join line at that point.

Try a search of this forum for waranka iras - that should give some hits. These are a hell to craft though...

Regards,
Kai

David · 1st May 2017, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Try a search of this forum for waranka iras - that should give some hits. These are a hell to craft though...

I'm afraid that search will not yield any return Kai. English spellings for Javanese terms vary, but you will get the most hits for that off "warangka iras", a bunch more off "wrongko iras" and a few more still as "wrangka iras".

Jean · 1st May 2017, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

I am of the opinion that this joint on any keris scabbard is its weakest point. Making the scabbard out of a single piece of wood would certainly make that spot stronger - I recall reading that this has been done; however, I don't recall ever seeing a scabbard without a join line at that point.

A scabbard made from a single piece of wood (warangka iras) is commonly used for Javanese or Madurese krisses but rarely if not never for Bugis krisses, one reason being that the wood species used for the gambar and gandar are usually different.... A glued neck joint using integral tenons on the sides of the gandar and inserted into the gambar is very strong.
Regards

Gustav · 1st May 2017, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

A scabbard made from a single piece of wood (warangka iras) is commonly used for Javanese or Madurese krisses but rarely if not never for Bugis krisses, one reason being that the wood species used for the gambar and gandar are usually different.... A glued neck joint using integral tenons on the sides of the gandar and inserted into the gambar is very strong.
Regards

Johan actually is wright. For a Gambar/Sampir on Sumatran or Peninsular Kerisses the piece of wood is mostly taken from roots, can be brittle and has a lot of inner tension. The walls at the joint with Gandar/Batang often are only a couple of millimeters thick, exactly at the weakest place. I have seen many and own some sheaths, where Sampir at this place is broken. If you try to adjust the loose pieces, you mostly find them slightly deformed, because of the inner tension of material.

Sorry, the weather wasn't good today to shoot the pictures. Will try tomorrow.

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2017, 09:44 PM

What you say is correct Gustav. I've seen many wrongkos where a split has developed in the neck of the gambar, I've also seen many where the tongues of a gandar have broken off. The weakness here is not confined to Bugis/Peninsula wrongkos, nor is it confined to root wood or burl wood, but it occurs in all wrongkos.

In old-time Javanese wrongko joints, the adhesive used was very often button shellac, which is a very weak adhesive. This allowed the adhesive to break before the wood broke, and it is a very simple thing just to heat the button shellac over a candle and refit the gandar, rather than return the whole keris to a m'ranggi to get it repaired.

Basically, it is a weak joint, and if there was enough timber to do so, small dowels would improve the joint.

But there is almost never enough thickness in either the wrongko neck, or the gandar, to use dowels.

So what is done is to overcome this joint weakness in another way. The joint gets covered by a metal collar, or it gets bound with twine, or a pendok is fitted.

Gustav · 2nd May 2017, 12:30 PM

A couple of pictures.

It's exactly 3 cm wide there, where the tang of blade would be, and becomes a little bit wider at the back (Greneng side of blade), with the length of 16,5 cm - all parameters when looked from above.

Gustav · 2nd May 2017, 12:33 PM

Two more.

Johan van Zyl · 2nd May 2017, 04:06 PM

Guys, this is all the help & advice I could ever wish for. I am truly indebted. Thanks to one and all!

A few remarks:
1 - I have read & considered ALL of your kind inputs and I study your pics in detail. If you should find I have here or there not responded to your specific hint and not executed my new wrongko as you suggested, please do not think I did not agree. As I wrote to Alan, I need to do it in the way that works for me. Oftentimes one's work, as it is progresses in the workshop, dictates to one how the next step needs to be taken to ensure a good end product.

2 - Having procured a good enough piece of wood from a friend for the remake (2nd try) of the gambar, I found myself better able to work the wood. You will all know: practice makes perfect. I'm sure if this 2nd try does not work out and I have to do it once again, the 3rd gambar would be even better! Imagine if I had to make a dozen Bugis gambars, how well organised I would be after the last one!

For this 2nd try I made a cardboard template for the opening in the top of the gambar where the blade is inserted. Although I was quite satisfied with the first try without the template, this second one is just about perfect! I laid the template over the top and scribed its outline on the wood. Then with my new-found expertise with the angle grinder and a motley assortment of special bits in my vertical drill stand, I removed the wood required and was met with a truly beautiful fit.

3 - I'm not really very impressed with the wood I got from the friend, as it is a bit too grainy for my liking. It looks a lot like Bluegum wood to me! But I have come quite far already and can't turn back now. Pics will soon follow!

4 - To be very honest, those tongues and side-mounted tenons some of you described, which go between the gandar & gambar sound terribly hard to carve.

I am intimidated, and I still have to go there...

2nd May 2017, 12:30 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	A couple of pictures. It's exactly 3 cm wide there, where the tang of blade would be, and becomes a little bit wider at the back (Greneng side of blade), with the length of 16,5 cm - all parameters when looked from above. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 2nd May 2017 at 01:01 PM.

2nd May 2017, 12:33 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Two more. Attached Images

1st May 2017, 10:25 AM	#1
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	I'm obliged, Rick! In considering the work still to be done, I'm fretting a little bit about joining the gandar to the gambar. Like Alan has said, a butt joint on its own is a bad idea. I have considered the correct method kindly explained by Alan, but I'm wondering if I could get a nice solid attachment by drilling a few holes into the gandar, inserting some brass pins and glueing them into place with their ends protruding, and then marking them against the opposite face of the gambar, drilling holes to accept the pins. When the two pieces are brought together for epoxy glueing, the pins are themselves glued and slid into the holes. (The pins needn't be brass, they can be bambu too.) I am of the opinion that this joint on any keris scabbard is its weakest point. Making the scabbard out of a single piece of wood would certainly make that spot stronger - I recall reading that this has been done; however, I don't recall ever seeing a scabbard without a join line at that point. That said, my good wife is of the opinion that I sometimes don't recall all that well...

1st May 2017, 10:35 AM	#2
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Thanks, Gustav! I need all the advice I can get. Much obliged.

1st May 2017, 09:44 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	What you say is correct Gustav. I've seen many wrongkos where a split has developed in the neck of the gambar, I've also seen many where the tongues of a gandar have broken off. The weakness here is not confined to Bugis/Peninsula wrongkos, nor is it confined to root wood or burl wood, but it occurs in all wrongkos. In old-time Javanese wrongko joints, the adhesive used was very often button shellac, which is a very weak adhesive. This allowed the adhesive to break before the wood broke, and it is a very simple thing just to heat the button shellac over a candle and refit the gandar, rather than return the whole keris to a m'ranggi to get it repaired. Basically, it is a weak joint, and if there was enough timber to do so, small dowels would improve the joint. But there is almost never enough thickness in either the wrongko neck, or the gandar, to use dowels. So what is done is to overcome this joint weakness in another way. The joint gets covered by a metal collar, or it gets bound with twine, or a pendok is fitted.

2nd May 2017, 04:06 PM	#10
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Guys, this is all the help & advice I could ever wish for. I am truly indebted. Thanks to one and all! A few remarks: 1 - I have read & considered ALL of your kind inputs and I study your pics in detail. If you should find I have here or there not responded to your specific hint and not executed my new wrongko as you suggested, please do not think I did not agree. As I wrote to Alan, I need to do it in the way that works for me. Oftentimes one's work, as it is progresses in the workshop, dictates to one how the next step needs to be taken to ensure a good end product. 2 - Having procured a good enough piece of wood from a friend for the remake (2nd try) of the gambar, I found myself better able to work the wood. You will all know: practice makes perfect. I'm sure if this 2nd try does not work out and I have to do it once again, the 3rd gambar would be even better! Imagine if I had to make a dozen Bugis gambars, how well organised I would be after the last one! For this 2nd try I made a cardboard template for the opening in the top of the gambar where the blade is inserted. Although I was quite satisfied with the first try without the template, this second one is just about perfect! I laid the template over the top and scribed its outline on the wood. Then with my new-found expertise with the angle grinder and a motley assortment of special bits in my vertical drill stand, I removed the wood required and was met with a truly beautiful fit. 3 - I'm not really very impressed with the wood I got from the friend, as it is a bit too grainy for my liking. It looks a lot like Bluegum wood to me! But I have come quite far already and can't turn back now. Pics will soon follow! 4 - To be very honest, those tongues and side-mounted tenons some of you described, which go between the gandar & gambar sound terribly hard to carve. I am intimidated, and I still have to go there...