AMERICAN INDIAN WAR CLUB FOR COMMENT

[BANDOOK]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]David, thank you again for the elucidation on this. It is very important that the material and observations we provide be accurate, and while the article I provided was intended to be informational, clearly it could be construed differently than I intended.

As noted, this was a great opportunity to bring this field of study more into the fold, and though as I noted, I have little knowledge in it, it was exciting to learn from what I researched, and I added it hoping to promote more interest. That was I am sure Ibrahiim's objective in looking at 'war clubs' collectively as suggested in the title of the thread, as the 'gunstock form' was indeed of the group despite not specific to the one in the OP.

It seems Miguel understood and appreciated the notes on the gunstock club as well as the manner of its inclusion here. You are right though, these clubs would well warrant their own thread and I would include the extensive research I completed on them years ago, very interesting examples. Actually I do believe they would fall into the war club category, but I enjoyed the bazooka analogy !

The article I posted was keyed to the Sioux versions of these war clubs and it is noted that the one in the OP was probably Cherokee. I thought I had emphasized the tribal distinction so as to show this as comparative information that readers could use to consider possibilities.

Actually I did not disagree that this was a modern reproduction, and was actually in agreement with you and Charles, but should have not included the notion that traditional process might be included in its making. I understand that was your concern, and you are quite right that might mislead Rajesh, so again thank you for your vigilance in correcting this.

Rajesh, please accept my apology, and my exuberant optimism. If I may say so however, your example is still an attractive item despite the more direct analysis which reveals it is modern and not authentic.

All best regards
Dear JIM
Thanks a lot for educating me as was this was recently added to my collection and had no idea about this club,as others have mentioned as being a reproduction,atleast now I will know more on these subjects for the future,Kind Regards Rajesh

[Pukka Bundook]

Regarding the late use of clubs amongst the Plains tribes, I had read, (many moons ago!!), that the reason was that a tomahawk (more popular earlier) was not as effective in horseback fighting.
By this I mean that a tomahawk/axe, has to hit sharp -side on to work as it was meant, but hitting an opponent with a stone club had the same effect whether the side, front or back contacted the target.
Yes, we see 'pointy' war -hawks, but the difference between being hit on the head with the point or side of one of these would be completely lost on the victim.
The gunstock club was in favour in an earlier period, and maybe made so, to capture the 'medicine' of firearms?. Normally an iron trade spear point was let into the stock.
The one we saw in "Last Of the Mohicans" was unusually large!..........but again, the longrifle carried by Hawkeye was unusually Long, and much later in style than it should have been. :-)

Best regards,
Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

When I was in Canada ten years ago, someone whom we visited showed me the attached, and asked me what it was. She said she found it when she and her husband bought the house where they are living.
I showed it on this forum, and someone told me that it was (after memory) a cermonial war club. They have one in a Canadian museum, which belonged to one of the famous chiefs, Sitting Bull(?) who had to flee to Canada.

[Jim McDougall]

You are very welcome Rajesh, and actually we have all been educated a bit here, so this has become a most useful thread.

Jens and Richard, thank you so much guys for bringing in these details to add to the perspective here. Jens, that is a very attractive example, and gives us a better look at what a ceremonial item in this category might look like.

Richard, good notes on that gunstock club from "Last of the Mohicans". I recall after seeing the movie, being pretty curious on these, as I noted earlier. It does seem a bit of 'license' was used as from what I learned, these gunstock clubs were not actually used by the Mohicans (at least in most references I checked). Naturally there at have been exceptions, just as is the case with most weapons cross diffusing in degree.

Good thought on the idea of 'medicine', as it does seem this kind of symbolic thinking was well in use in these tribal cultures. The case for the unusually long, 'long rifle' for Hawkeye.........well, uh, as they always say 'hooray for Hollywood!'. Everything is larger than real life.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Richard, good notes on that gunstock club from "Last of the Mohicans". I recall after seeing the movie, being pretty curious on these, as I noted earlier. It does seem a bit of 'license' was used as from what I learned, these gunstock clubs were not actually used by the Mohicans (at least in most references I checked). Naturally there at have been exceptions, just as is the case with most weapons cross diffusing in degree.

I think that perhaps the ball-headed club was more popular amongst the Mohicans as depicted in this drawing of Chief Etow Oh Koam from the late 18th century. However, the gunstock club was known to be used by numerous tribes across the Eastern Woodlands and Eastern and Northern Plains, so it would not be a weapon that would necessarily be unknown to the Mohicans. And as the story goes at this point this Mohican was operating somewhat separated from his own fading culture so who can blame him for making his weapon of choice the biggest damn gunstock bazooka club he could fashion.

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,

It is Still hard to believe that ten years have passed!!
I think we would both like them back. :-)

Jim and David,
You are both so very right regarding Hollywood!
The gunstock club was on a par with Morgan Freeman's scimitar in Robin Hood!....and used to very much the same effect!
You can see the mind of the producer;
"I like that bit, we should fit it in this film if we can!".

Can I also say that in this area, (Alberta) there are found at times large stones cut with a groove around the centre. they normally show bruising and breakage on at least one end.
Some say they were made for grinding grain, but that does not account for the groove. Some such stones are the size of a decent loaf of bread.
These stones are rough, not like some of the fine polished objects above.
My thoughts;
Could these have been used for braining buffalo crippled in a buffalo jump?
It would take a fair -sized rock to give such an animal its quietus !

Please pardon the slightly OT.

Richard.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

The one we saw in "Last Of the Mohicans" was unusually large!..........but again, the longrifle carried by Hawkeye was unusually Long, and much later in style than it should have been. :-)

Well as Jim says, Hurray for Hollywood. EVERYTHING is unusually large. In fact, even the landscape was unusually large. There are no gorges and waterfalls like that in the upstate NY area this film was supposed to have taken place in. They filmed in the Smokey Mountains for a more grandiose scale. Still an interesting film though.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by David

Well... There are no gorges and waterfalls like that in the upstate NY area this film was supposed to have taken place in. ...

ausable chasm in the adirondacks of NY is pretty awesome. i remembered it from having been there in my pre-teens. i lived not all that far from there on the NJ/NY border, i discovered i had acrophobia there at the chasm. that suspension bridge did me in. scared the stuffing outta me; you could look thru the gaps in the floor boards and the bridge wobbles and sways. looks unchanged from my day.

they are a tad smaller than the ones in the film tho. and i certainly would not want to see what was left of anyone jumping off the waterfalls.

letchworth and watkins glen are also upstate. the geneses river has sme interesting topography too.

[Jim McDougall]

In post #27, David has posted an outstanding image of a Mahican chief, and holding a most impressive ball club, but as I look at the portrait, it just dawned on me that this notable chief, aside from that club, is wearing a European sword!!!
The portrait was painted by a Dutch painter, Jan Verelst, in 1710, when a key figure of Dutch New York, took four (actually five but one died enroute) American Indian chiefs to visit Queen Anne in London on a diplomatic mission.
As portraits of the other chiefs (actually Mohawks) were holding items such as muskets, it seems many were of course props provided by the artists (there were three painting sets of portraits).

I have started a new thread "use of swords by American Indians" in order to avoid detracting from the topic here, and hope it will prove as interesting as this thread has been.

With the large ball club in the portrait, and given that it was painted in England by a Dutch artist, it sets me wondering if these chiefs had brought their own weaponry, perhaps as gifts or tokens in diplomatic gesture, or whether these were items previously collected by either Dutch or English colonials.

[kronckew]

i noted the sword too. figured it was either artistic license or a peace piece (da debble made me say that) presented to the chief.

'nother pair of my recent 'native american' ball clubs, just for the halibut.:

[David]

Originally Posted by kronckew

i noted the sword too. figured it was either artistic license or a peace piece (da debble made me say that) presented to the chief.

'nother pair of my recent 'native american' ball clubs, just for the halibut.:

If i am not mistaken Wayne, the club you show on the right is produced by Cold Steel and is actually not made of wood at all, but rather black polypropylene which they claim is virtually indestructible.
There are a good number of recent examples that are intricately carved out of beautifully grained wood and often these carvers are modern Native Americans.

[David]

Originally Posted by kronckew

ausable chasm in the adirondacks of NY is pretty awesome. i remembered it from having been there in my pre-teens. i lived not all that far from there on the NJ/NY border, i discovered i had acrophobia there at the chasm. that suspension bridge did me in. scared the stuffing outta me; you could look thru the gaps in the floor boards and the bridge wobbles and sways. looks unchanged from my day.

they are a tad smaller than the ones in the film tho. and i certainly would not want to see what was left of anyone jumping off the waterfalls.

letchworth and watkins glen are also upstate. the geneses river has sme interesting topography too.

Yes Wayne, i grew up in New York and i'm quite familiar with the landscape of upstate. The Adirondacks in NY are indeed quite beautiful as are the Catskills. But the landscape has nowhere near the scale of cliffs and waterfalls used from the Chimney Rock area of North Carolina in the film.