AMERICAN INDIAN WAR CLUB FOR COMMENT

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

What was interesting to me was that the method of construction seemed to follow that in the article I found, but then certainly fabricators of imitations would probably follow that as well.

Jim, i appreciate that you have taken this as an opportunity to delve into this very interesting and perhaps under represented (on these forums) weapons of Native American culture. I also appreciate Ibrahiim's contribution on the so-called gunstock clubs (though it sort of like bringing up bazookas in a discussion on .22 caliber rifles...really apples and oranges). These gunstock clubs are very interesting and probably deserving of a thread of their own if any members actually have legitimate examples to show.
But just for clarification i do have to call your above statement into question just so we don't leave any misconceptions in Rajesh's mind. It seems pretty obvious to me that Rajesh's club is not at all constructed in the traditional manner mentioned in your article which is why we are all calling it out as probably being a modern reproduction. According to your article these clubs used notched stones that were generally double cone of egg shaped and attached these stones to handles with rawhide. These clubs were usually decorated. Rajesh's club does none of this.
"These stone heads were made from hard material, usually granite or quartzite The type form is double cone, varying to egg shape, but always with a groove around the middle in which the handle was fastened.
The stone head war club averaged about two pounds in weight. It was attached to a wooden handle about 20 inches in length. These handles were small. When they were shaped to the proper size, one end was split and half of it removed , leaving enough of the other half to reach around the groove and extend a few inches down the handle, which was then wrapped with green rawhide, the leather extending around the wood in the groove. When dried, the rawhide shrank and the handle was fastened on securely."

[David]

While i can not attest to the authenticity of the following examples all these seem to adhere to the style, method and materials used to create stone clubs by plains and more eastern native tribes.

[Jim McDougall]

David, thank you again for the elucidation on this. It is very important that the material and observations we provide be accurate, and while the article I provided was intended to be informational, clearly it could be construed differently than I intended.

As noted, this was a great opportunity to bring this field of study more into the fold, and though as I noted, I have little knowledge in it, it was exciting to learn from what I researched, and I added it hoping to promote more interest. That was I am sure Ibrahiim's objective in looking at 'war clubs' collectively as suggested in the title of the thread, as the 'gunstock form' was indeed of the group despite not specific to the one in the OP.

It seems Miguel understood and appreciated the notes on the gunstock club as well as the manner of its inclusion here. You are right though, these clubs would well warrant their own thread and I would include the extensive research I completed on them years ago, very interesting examples. Actually I do believe they would fall into the war club category, but I enjoyed the bazooka analogy !

The article I posted was keyed to the Sioux versions of these war clubs and it is noted that the one in the OP was probably Cherokee. I thought I had emphasized the tribal distinction so as to show this as comparative information that readers could use to consider possibilities.

Actually I did not disagree that this was a modern reproduction, and was actually in agreement with you and Charles, but should have not included the notion that traditional process might be included in its making. I understand that was your concern, and you are quite right that might mislead Rajesh, so again thank you for your vigilance in correcting this.

Rajesh, please accept my apology, and my exuberant optimism. If I may say so however, your example is still an attractive item despite the more direct analysis which reveals it is modern and not authentic.

All best regards
Jim

[David]

No worries Jim, and i was not trying to curb the discussion of other clubs here, merely trying to direct the discussion more towards Rajesh's example since that was what he would no doubt most be interested in getting information on.
Like you Jim, i also know very little about Native American weapons from a collectors perspective. I do know that the true examples of any old Native American items, be they weapons or pottery or textiles, are highly valued in the marketplace, making forgeries of such items a lucrative pastime. So we should be very careful when examining such items for appraisal.
From what i do understand, despite Hollywood's focus on the tomahawk and the bow & arrow, clubs seem to be the main weapon of war for many Eastern Woodland and Plains Indian tribes. Another interesting club form we have not mentioned yet is the ball-headed club style which seems to originate with the Eastern Woodland natives though examples of this style seem to stretch to the Eastern Plains and as far as the Western Great Lakes region. I certainly don't recognize stylistic difference, if there are any, to determine where these are found, but i do believe various club forms spread from tribe to tribe. So i'm not convinced we will find all that much difference in the usual construction used for stone-headed clubs between, say, Souix and Cherokee tribes. But maybe someone knows more about that here. Anyway, here are a few examples of the ball-headed club. With the introduction of metal these sometimes got the addition of a steel spike or blade in the head to make them all the more deadly, though bu design these clubs were already fairly efficient head crushers.
(most of these are supposedly origin clubs, though at least one is definitely a very accurate report of an original design)

[Jim McDougall]

One thing I would add, while this seems modern of course, it seems that as we traveled through North Carolina Indian reservations, Cherokee; Oklahoma reservations, Cherokee; Montana and South Dakota, Wounded Knee, Little Big Horn, Utah and I cannot even recall many others offhand, the gift shops sold clubs of this kind.
I wish I could recall more of what these were like, however it does seem they might have been made using sinew. I paid no special notice at the time.

However, I was told on several occasions that objects sold as Native American, had to have been made by those only of such heritage, and that was legally regulated. Again, I cannot recall more detail, it was years ago.
It was in that thinking that I observed that this item was probably made by someone of this ethnicity. That was what I meant by even though modern, made in the traditions of these tribes.

Perhaps we might have some clarification on this?

[Jim McDougall]

David, we crossed posts, and excellent entries with those ball headed clubs.
I came across these as well in my research, and I became so engulfed in these subjects I spent the better part of several nights and piles of index cards and notes putting data together.

As I noted, I just remembered instances encountered in our travels through Indian reservations, and wish I had been more attentive. I am wondering if these legalities are actually observed, and if that might have bearing on Rajesh's example.

Thank you for adding these ball clubs (which were pretty scary, as one source said they were basically 'jaw breakers' used in upward strike).
I think it would be great to expand our knowledge base on these Native American weapons here, and particularly as a kind of memento toward Barry. I wish he were here to add to this.

All best regards
Jim

[David]

If Barry were still with us i am sure he would have some awesome information to add to this mix.

[BANDOOK]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]David, thank you again for the elucidation on this. It is very important that the material and observations we provide be accurate, and while the article I provided was intended to be informational, clearly it could be construed differently than I intended.

As noted, this was a great opportunity to bring this field of study more into the fold, and though as I noted, I have little knowledge in it, it was exciting to learn from what I researched, and I added it hoping to promote more interest. That was I am sure Ibrahiim's objective in looking at 'war clubs' collectively as suggested in the title of the thread, as the 'gunstock form' was indeed of the group despite not specific to the one in the OP.

It seems Miguel understood and appreciated the notes on the gunstock club as well as the manner of its inclusion here. You are right though, these clubs would well warrant their own thread and I would include the extensive research I completed on them years ago, very interesting examples. Actually I do believe they would fall into the war club category, but I enjoyed the bazooka analogy !

The article I posted was keyed to the Sioux versions of these war clubs and it is noted that the one in the OP was probably Cherokee. I thought I had emphasized the tribal distinction so as to show this as comparative information that readers could use to consider possibilities.

Actually I did not disagree that this was a modern reproduction, and was actually in agreement with you and Charles, but should have not included the notion that traditional process might be included in its making. I understand that was your concern, and you are quite right that might mislead Rajesh, so again thank you for your vigilance in correcting this.

Rajesh, please accept my apology, and my exuberant optimism. If I may say so however, your example is still an attractive item despite the more direct analysis which reveals it is modern and not authentic.

All best regards
Dear JIM
Thanks a lot for educating me as was this was recently added to my collection and had no idea about this club,as others have mentioned as being a reproduction,atleast now I will know more on these subjects for the future,Kind Regards Rajesh

[Pukka Bundook]

Regarding the late use of clubs amongst the Plains tribes, I had read, (many moons ago!!), that the reason was that a tomahawk (more popular earlier) was not as effective in horseback fighting.
By this I mean that a tomahawk/axe, has to hit sharp -side on to work as it was meant, but hitting an opponent with a stone club had the same effect whether the side, front or back contacted the target.
Yes, we see 'pointy' war -hawks, but the difference between being hit on the head with the point or side of one of these would be completely lost on the victim.
The gunstock club was in favour in an earlier period, and maybe made so, to capture the 'medicine' of firearms?. Normally an iron trade spear point was let into the stock.
The one we saw in "Last Of the Mohicans" was unusually large!..........but again, the longrifle carried by Hawkeye was unusually Long, and much later in style than it should have been. :-)

Best regards,
Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

When I was in Canada ten years ago, someone whom we visited showed me the attached, and asked me what it was. She said she found it when she and her husband bought the house where they are living.
I showed it on this forum, and someone told me that it was (after memory) a cermonial war club. They have one in a Canadian museum, which belonged to one of the famous chiefs, Sitting Bull(?) who had to flee to Canada.

[Jim McDougall]

You are very welcome Rajesh, and actually we have all been educated a bit here, so this has become a most useful thread.

Jens and Richard, thank you so much guys for bringing in these details to add to the perspective here. Jens, that is a very attractive example, and gives us a better look at what a ceremonial item in this category might look like.

Richard, good notes on that gunstock club from "Last of the Mohicans". I recall after seeing the movie, being pretty curious on these, as I noted earlier. It does seem a bit of 'license' was used as from what I learned, these gunstock clubs were not actually used by the Mohicans (at least in most references I checked). Naturally there at have been exceptions, just as is the case with most weapons cross diffusing in degree.

Good thought on the idea of 'medicine', as it does seem this kind of symbolic thinking was well in use in these tribal cultures. The case for the unusually long, 'long rifle' for Hawkeye.........well, uh, as they always say 'hooray for Hollywood!'. Everything is larger than real life.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

The one we saw in "Last Of the Mohicans" was unusually large!..........but again, the longrifle carried by Hawkeye was unusually Long, and much later in style than it should have been. :-)

Well as Jim says, Hurray for Hollywood. EVERYTHING is unusually large. In fact, even the landscape was unusually large. There are no gorges and waterfalls like that in the upstate NY area this film was supposed to have taken place in. They filmed in the Smokey Mountains for a more grandiose scale. Still an interesting film though.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by David

Well... There are no gorges and waterfalls like that in the upstate NY area this film was supposed to have taken place in. ...

ausable chasm in the adirondacks of NY is pretty awesome. i remembered it from having been there in my pre-teens. i lived not all that far from there on the NJ/NY border, i discovered i had acrophobia there at the chasm. that suspension bridge did me in. scared the stuffing outta me; you could look thru the gaps in the floor boards and the bridge wobbles and sways. looks unchanged from my day.

they are a tad smaller than the ones in the film tho. and i certainly would not want to see what was left of anyone jumping off the waterfalls.

letchworth and watkins glen are also upstate. the geneses river has sme interesting topography too.