Help with 3 'Cross of Agades' daggers

[Iain]

Just to echo what's already been said, the examples shown I would place as manufactured in Hausa or Nupe territory, in particular Bida for the example with the brass scabbard.

One thing to keep in mind, place of manufacture does not mean the place of use. Goods from Bida or Hausa cities were used widely by the Tuareg as well.

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Iain

Just to echo what's already been said, the examples shown I would place as manufactured in Hausa or Nupe territory, in particular Bida for the example with the brass scabbard.

One thing to keep in mind, place of manufacture does not mean the place of use. Goods from Bida or Hausa cities were used widely by the Tuareg as well.

THank you Iain but for this reiteration and confirmation As a collector and frustrated amateur curator I always feel the need to pin items down to geographical locations or tribal associations ... and frequently this simply isnt as straightforward as it is with European items . Having said that , pre 18th C ,the region of manufacture of European arms & armour was no indicator of 'end user' status , to use modern jargon ! I suppose all this is what makes our hobby so fascinating .

[Iain]

Originally Posted by thinreadline

THank you Iain but for this reiteration and confirmation As a collector and frustrated amateur curator I always feel the need to pin items down to geographical locations or tribal associations ... and frequently this simply isnt as straightforward as it is with European items . Having said that , pre 18th C ,the region of manufacture of European arms & armour was no indicator of 'end user' status , to use modern jargon ! I suppose all this is what makes our hobby so fascinating .

Yes, it is always tempting to be able to assign a nice neat attribution to an item but of course much harder in practice!

How do we classify a sword with a blade made in Germany, a hilt made in Kano and collected off a Tuareg warrior?

Over the years of collecting and researching Sahel arms I've thankfully found less and less of a need to try and pigeon hole things, which is probably good for my health!

[Miguel]

Thank you thinreadline for this thread and thanks to the participants for sharing their knowledge which has made it so interesting. It never ceases to amaze me the wealth of knowledge available and freely given on this forum.

I was given, many years ago, a couple of knives similar to the ones in your thread and have long considered them to be for the tourist trade (mine I mean) due to the shortness of the hilts in comparison to yours and any others I have seen when trying to find a match with mine. The shortness and angularity of my hilts uncomfortable in the hand and I cannot see that any self respecting Tuareg would give them tent room. Having said that I would like to know if my consideration is correct or not.
Regards
Miguel

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Thank you thinreadline for this thread and thanks to the participants for sharing their knowledge which has made it so interesting. It never ceases to amaze me the wealth of knowledge available and freely given on this forum.

I was given, many years ago, a couple of knives similar to the ones in your thread and have long considered them to be for the tourist trade (mine I mean) due to the shortness of the hilts in comparison to yours and any others I have seen when trying to find a match with mine. The shortness and angularity of my hilts uncomfortable in the hand and I cannot see that any self respecting Tuareg would give them tent room. Having said that I would like to know if my consideration is correct or not.
Regards
Miguel

Well Miguel there are others better qualified than I to answer your question . However one possibility is that they are daggers made for children ... I have seen scaled down Kaskaras which were described as such . If these were European weapons they might even have been described as salesmen's samples ... though I doubt this is the case here. I rather like them however !

[thinreadline]

Well thank you all for your input on this topic , I have found it most enlightening and indeed thought provoking . I take your point to heart Iain re the virtual futility of attempting to pigeonhole every weapon ... I suppose my long career as a botanist with a strong interest in taxonomy has spilled over into my hobby , driving me to wish to classify everything I see !

[Jim McDougall]

Well Redline, I just realized that the 'read' was the wordplay (bonk!) and very clever in dealing in military books.....well done! Being astute is not one of my best traits

So you're a botanist, now there is a fascinating field!! and your inclination toward classification now well understood. We've had some most interesting discussion on botanical motif in decorating weapons, and in styling.

I had not thought of childrens weapons regarding Miguels examples, and that is indeed a distinct possibility.

Whatever the case, these carry the distinctive symbols and motif that is so inherently important in the traditions and conventions of these tribes in the Sahara. That four petal device well aligns with the crosses we have been discussing, and occurs often on takouba mounts in these regions.
Even in the case of 'souveniers' these items reflect the powerful and often mysterious history and traditions of these people, and Tuareg material culture is highly regarded artistically in ethnographica.

"..the sober truth about the Sahara...is more mysterious than
anything that has ever been written about it, even by the
most irresponsible spinner of fairy tales, for the very fact
is that very little is yet known about the peoples who live
there".
-Lloyd Cabot Briggs
"Tribes of the Sahara" (1960)

However......clearly.......we are learning!!!

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by thinreadline

Well Miguel there are others better qualified than I to answer your question . However one possibility is that they are daggers made for children ... I have seen scaled down Kaskaras which were described as such . If these were European weapons they might even have been described as salesmen's samples ... though I doubt this is the case here. I rather like them however !

Thank you thinreadline, I think children`s daggers could well be a valid possibility and one that I had not considered.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Regarding the example posted by Miguel I think this is a more recent work, I would guess from modern day Nigeria. It could well be simply a show piece to be worn at events like a durbar and thus not requiring any particular practicality in terms of handle size, but more of a fashionable accoutrement as part of tradition costume. Or it could be as suggest for a child, or simply an example of local brass work intended as a souvenir.

Thank you Iain for your above comments, they make perfect sense, much obliged.
Miguel

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by thinreadline

THank you Iain but for this reiteration and confirmation As a collector and frustrated amateur curator I always feel the need to pin items down to geographical locations or tribal associations ... and frequently this simply isnt as straightforward as it is with European items . Having said that , pre 18th C ,the region of manufacture of European arms & armour was no indicator of 'end user' status , to use modern jargon ! I suppose all this is what makes our hobby so fascinating .

I think the term 'end user' works well in the challenging circumstances of classifying weapons. As I have mentioned before, in most cases, 'blades' (in essence the 'sword' entity) have usually long working lives, often through generations and changed hands whether through trade, capture, or many means.
Those involved in the serious investigation of the history of swords recognize that these are veritable icons of history themselves, and as such carry various elements and clues which reflect an often chronological story of their past.
While collectors generally want a concise and specific classification for each weapon, which is neat and impressive, such categoric placement ('cookie cutter' method) is not always possible. The multitude of exceptions and variations, particularly in ethnographic forms, desperately require additional description to properly understand any degree of their true history.

It is indeed fascinating as what we investigate as we study these weapons is in effect almost a forensically based effort, and what we learn from these examples is wonderfully dimensional history.

Iain has tenaciously shown these methods in the remarkable research he has completed on Sahelian and North African edged weapons in general. His years of research focused not just on the weapons, but those peoples who used them. With these studies have not only advanced our knowledge of these weapons, but proven that the study of ethnographic weapons is a viable factor in anthropological and historic disciplines. Most importantly not just learning about the weapons, but their history THROUGH them.

Redline, your posting of these examples has been an exciting and fascinating experience as I realized I needed to know more on these daggers, and like you, trying to see if any regional attribution was possible. Despite knowing what I have described and potential futility from the profound dynamics with movement and exchange with these arms, I have spent days and nights 'in the Sahara' (figuratively) going through every resource possible.

It seems there is a modicum of categoric classification possible, provided the proper qualification and description is maintained, but as we see, it takes considerable research, comparison and study.

I thank you so much for this wonderful adventure!!

On the Redline, I do know of the famed 93rd at Balaklava, and was immersed in the study (mostly of the "Light Brigade") in many years of study from youthful obsession with Tennyson's powerful poem.
As you well note, the plays on words are thoroughly part and parcel of the English language, which make it such a colorful one, but most daunting for those trying to learn it in many cases.

For me as I noted Redline was a term from 60s racing days of high horsepower engines, when 6000 rpm was the 'redline' on the tachometer, the point where your engine reached 'critical mass'! I remember the corvette I drove where I literally never looked at the speedometer, but watched the tach!

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Iain has tenaciously shown these methods in the remarkable research he has completed on Sahelian and North African edged weapons in general. His years of research focused not just on the weapons, but those peoples who used them. With these studies have not only advanced our knowledge of these weapons, but proven that the study of ethnographic weapons is a viable factor in anthropological and historic disciplines. Most importantly not just learning about the weapons, but their history THROUGH them.

Very kind Jim but outside of the takouba my knowledge if frightfully lacking!

Regarding the example posted by Miguel I think this is a more recent work, I would guess from modern day Nigeria. It could well be simply a show piece to be worn at events like a durbar and thus not requiring any particular practicality in terms of handle size, but more of a fashionable accoutrement as part of tradition costume. Or it could be as suggest for a child, or simply an example of local brass work intended as a souvenir.

I certainly didn't mean to discourage attempts to arrive at a classification or attribution, we can certainly recognize elements that point to a place of manufacture and in some cases the last user with leather-work etc. providing valuable clues. While I doubt, due to the nature of these weapons and their role in society, we will ever arrive at something as precise as the tribal attributions possible for example with Congolese arms, there is always more to learn and puzzle out!