Help with 3 'Cross of Agades' daggers

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

As far as I know, these types of dagger were used by a number of different tribal groups in the Northern Nigeria area and further afield. The one on the right, with the brass scabbard should be from Bida, and made/used by the Nupe people.

They are reasonably common finds here in the UK., due no doubt to the colonial history.

Thank you Colin. Spring's African Arms & Armour also describes the brass scabbarded types as Nupe .

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Redline (I like that moniker BTW, reminds me of Redline 6000, old racing days!)......so the axiom should be, 'you shouldn't judge a sword by its scabbard' in the same convention.

Colin thank you for the input, and its great when we can all get together to compare information and ideas. With me as the novice here, I spent most of yesterday digging through every resource I could find to see if there was any sort of potential for regionally or tribally identifying these Saharan daggers.

It seems Briggs (1965) spent quite a lot of time in Tuareg areas, but was geographically mostly in Algerian regions. In his venerable work, he has used a Northern and Southern demarcation for tribal forms of takouba, which, for me at least has proven challenging. It seems hard to apply this to confederations of nomadic people typically moving about over five countries and vast areas of Saharan desert.

One thing I did discover is that the 'Agadez cross' as seen on the left and right examples in the original three posted here, is indeed that known as 'Agadez', but it is one of 21 cross forms, each attributed to other primary Tuareg locations. I found that Agadez (in Niger) was a kind of key point or center in a sense, and for example, the green leather used in scabbards was apparently produced there, and traded for use through Tuareg networks.
The Agadez cross seems prevalent symbolically on many of these daggers as well as on the Tuareg camel saddles.

The other forms of cross seem to be used primarily on jewellery, and not as I presumed in other hilts, though the center dagger here seems to be a variation of the Agadez with arms splayed upward.

Trying to find consistancies in the elements of these daggers, in comparison to other examples I found, it seems that splayed arm configuration may be most aligned with 'Northern' types, from Algerian regions into the Fezzan regions of Libya. I would say this categoric area must include northern Niger as well.
It seems clear that the 'arm daggers' are but one prevalent form of Tuareg daggers, and that that characteristic feature seems to predominate in those areas. The other type, more of a belt dagger resides congruently but more in other areas perhaps .

Turning to scabbards, while we agree these must be a secondary classification feature, one thing I notice is the distinctive open loop on the tip of the scabbard. These seem to prevail on Hausa or Nupe weapons in the same 'corridor' from N. Nigeria into Algeria and Libya.

It is tempting to think that the 'arm ring' form of telek is situated more to Algerian, Libyan, and Niger regions as the same feature is well known on much smaller daggers worn in the same manner as Sudan. This is of course by free association and realizing such arbitrary assumption is easily defeated, however worthy of note.

Naturally most of what I am observing is from research hoping to learn more on these Tuareg daggers, and I look forward to your thoughts as well of course as hoping for Iain to join in. Its fascinating to learn more on weapons I have known little on, and I appreciate the knowledge you guys openly share here.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent Redline (I like that moniker BTW, reminds me of Redline 6000, old racing days!)......so the axiom should be, 'you shouldn't judge a sword by its scabbard' in the same convention.

Colin thank you for the input, and its great when we can all get together to compare information and ideas. With me as the novice here, I spent most of yesterday digging through every resource I could find to see if there was any sort of potential for regionally or tribally identifying these Saharan daggers.

It seems Briggs (1965) spent quite a lot of time in Tuareg areas, but was geographically mostly in Algerian regions. In his venerable work, he has used a Northern and Southern demarcation for tribal forms of takouba, which, for me at least has proven challenging. It seems hard to apply this to confederations of nomadic people typically moving about over five countries and vast areas of Saharan desert.

One thing I did discover is that the 'Agadez cross' as seen on the left and right examples in the original three posted here, is indeed that known as 'Agadez', but it is one of 21 cross forms, each attributed to other primary Tuareg locations. I found that Agadez (in Niger) was a kind of key point or center in a sense, and for example, the green leather used in scabbards was apparently produced there, and traded for use through Tuareg networks.
The Agadez cross seems prevalent symbolically on many of these daggers as well as on the Tuareg camel saddles.

The other forms of cross seem to be used primarily on jewellery, and not as I presumed in other hilts, though the center dagger here seems to be a variation of the Agadez with arms splayed upward.

Trying to find consistancies in the elements of these daggers, in comparison to other examples I found, it seems that splayed arm configuration may be most aligned with 'Northern' types, from Algerian regions into the Fezzan regions of Libya. I would say this categoric area must include northern Niger as well.
It seems clear that the 'arm daggers' are but one prevalent form of Tuareg daggers, and that that characteristic feature seems to predominate in those areas. The other type, more of a belt dagger resides congruently but more in other areas perhaps .

Turning to scabbards, while we agree these must be a secondary classification feature, one thing I notice is the distinctive open loop on the tip of the scabbard. These seem to prevail on Hausa or Nupe weapons in the same 'corridor' from N. Nigeria into Algeria and Libya.

It is tempting to think that the 'arm ring' form of telek is situated more to Algerian, Libyan, and Niger regions as the same feature is well known on much smaller daggers worn in the same manner as Sudan. This is of course by free association and realizing such arbitrary assumption is easily defeated, however worthy of note.

Naturally most of what I am observing is from research hoping to learn more on these Tuareg daggers, and I look forward to your thoughts as well of course as hoping for Iain to join in. Its fascinating to learn more on weapons I have known little on, and I appreciate the knowledge you guys openly share here.

Salaams Jim, As you note earlier the Tuareg Jewellery form is closely related in tradition:

Quote'' Cross of Agadez from http://anakomvoyages.com/tuareghistory.html often worked in Silver. The Agadez cross is the most important piece of jewelry for a Tuareg. According to some sources the Agadez cross is traditionally given by a father to his son when he reaches around 15 years of age. This is the age a boy becomes a man and is free to travel anywhere he wishes. The four points of the cross represent the four corners of the world".Unquote

I note from http://camelphotos.com/camel_saddle.html the peculiar forked saddle made in Agadez by blacksmiths is also a related design feature incorporated also in the Agadez cross idea.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, As you note earlier the Tuareg Jewellery form is closely related in tradition:

Quote'' Cross of Agadez from http://anakomvoyages.com/tuareghistory.html often worked in Silver. The Agadez cross is the most important piece of jewelry for a Tuareg. According to some sources the Agadez cross is traditionally given by a father to his son when he reaches around 15 years of age. This is the age a boy becomes a man and is free to travel anywhere he wishes. The four points of the cross represent the four corners of the world".Unquote

I note from http://camelphotos.com/camel_saddle.html the peculiar forked saddle made in Agadez by blacksmiths is also a related design feature incorporated also in the Agadez cross idea.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Very interesting Ibrahiim

[Iain]

Just to echo what's already been said, the examples shown I would place as manufactured in Hausa or Nupe territory, in particular Bida for the example with the brass scabbard.

One thing to keep in mind, place of manufacture does not mean the place of use. Goods from Bida or Hausa cities were used widely by the Tuareg as well.

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Iain

Just to echo what's already been said, the examples shown I would place as manufactured in Hausa or Nupe territory, in particular Bida for the example with the brass scabbard.

One thing to keep in mind, place of manufacture does not mean the place of use. Goods from Bida or Hausa cities were used widely by the Tuareg as well.

THank you Iain but for this reiteration and confirmation As a collector and frustrated amateur curator I always feel the need to pin items down to geographical locations or tribal associations ... and frequently this simply isnt as straightforward as it is with European items . Having said that , pre 18th C ,the region of manufacture of European arms & armour was no indicator of 'end user' status , to use modern jargon ! I suppose all this is what makes our hobby so fascinating .

[Iain]

Originally Posted by thinreadline

THank you Iain but for this reiteration and confirmation As a collector and frustrated amateur curator I always feel the need to pin items down to geographical locations or tribal associations ... and frequently this simply isnt as straightforward as it is with European items . Having said that , pre 18th C ,the region of manufacture of European arms & armour was no indicator of 'end user' status , to use modern jargon ! I suppose all this is what makes our hobby so fascinating .

Yes, it is always tempting to be able to assign a nice neat attribution to an item but of course much harder in practice!

How do we classify a sword with a blade made in Germany, a hilt made in Kano and collected off a Tuareg warrior?

Over the years of collecting and researching Sahel arms I've thankfully found less and less of a need to try and pigeon hole things, which is probably good for my health!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by thinreadline

THank you Iain but for this reiteration and confirmation As a collector and frustrated amateur curator I always feel the need to pin items down to geographical locations or tribal associations ... and frequently this simply isnt as straightforward as it is with European items . Having said that , pre 18th C ,the region of manufacture of European arms & armour was no indicator of 'end user' status , to use modern jargon ! I suppose all this is what makes our hobby so fascinating .

I think the term 'end user' works well in the challenging circumstances of classifying weapons. As I have mentioned before, in most cases, 'blades' (in essence the 'sword' entity) have usually long working lives, often through generations and changed hands whether through trade, capture, or many means.
Those involved in the serious investigation of the history of swords recognize that these are veritable icons of history themselves, and as such carry various elements and clues which reflect an often chronological story of their past.
While collectors generally want a concise and specific classification for each weapon, which is neat and impressive, such categoric placement ('cookie cutter' method) is not always possible. The multitude of exceptions and variations, particularly in ethnographic forms, desperately require additional description to properly understand any degree of their true history.

It is indeed fascinating as what we investigate as we study these weapons is in effect almost a forensically based effort, and what we learn from these examples is wonderfully dimensional history.

Iain has tenaciously shown these methods in the remarkable research he has completed on Sahelian and North African edged weapons in general. His years of research focused not just on the weapons, but those peoples who used them. With these studies have not only advanced our knowledge of these weapons, but proven that the study of ethnographic weapons is a viable factor in anthropological and historic disciplines. Most importantly not just learning about the weapons, but their history THROUGH them.

Redline, your posting of these examples has been an exciting and fascinating experience as I realized I needed to know more on these daggers, and like you, trying to see if any regional attribution was possible. Despite knowing what I have described and potential futility from the profound dynamics with movement and exchange with these arms, I have spent days and nights 'in the Sahara' (figuratively) going through every resource possible.

It seems there is a modicum of categoric classification possible, provided the proper qualification and description is maintained, but as we see, it takes considerable research, comparison and study.

I thank you so much for this wonderful adventure!!

On the Redline, I do know of the famed 93rd at Balaklava, and was immersed in the study (mostly of the "Light Brigade") in many years of study from youthful obsession with Tennyson's powerful poem.
As you well note, the plays on words are thoroughly part and parcel of the English language, which make it such a colorful one, but most daunting for those trying to learn it in many cases.

For me as I noted Redline was a term from 60s racing days of high horsepower engines, when 6000 rpm was the 'redline' on the tachometer, the point where your engine reached 'critical mass'! I remember the corvette I drove where I literally never looked at the speedometer, but watched the tach!

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent Redline (I like that moniker BTW, reminds me of Redline 6000, old racing days!)......so the axiom should be, 'you shouldn't judge a sword by its scabbard' in the same convention.

Colin thank you for the input, and its great when we can all get together to compare information and ideas. With me as the novice here, I spent most of yesterday digging through every resource I could find to see if there was any sort of potential for regionally or tribally identifying these Saharan daggers.

It seems Briggs (1965) spent quite a lot of time in Tuareg areas, but was geographically mostly in Algerian regions. In his venerable work, he has used a Northern and Southern demarcation for tribal forms of takouba, which, for me at least has proven challenging. It seems hard to apply this to confederations of nomadic people typically moving about over five countries and vast areas of Saharan desert.



One thing I did discover is that the 'Agadez cross' as seen on the left and right examples in the original three posted here, is indeed that known as 'Agadez', but it is one of 21 cross forms, each attributed to other primary Tuareg locations. I found that Agadez (in Niger) was a kind of key point or center in a sense, and for example, the green leather used in scabbards was apparently produced there, and traded for use through Tuareg networks.
The Agadez cross seems prevalent symbolically on many of these daggers as well as on the Tuareg camel saddles.

The other forms of cross seem to be used primarily on jewellery, and not as I presumed in other hilts, though the center dagger here seems to be a variation of the Agadez with arms splayed upward.

Trying to find consistancies in the elements of these daggers, in comparison to other examples I found, it seems that splayed arm configuration may be most aligned with 'Northern' types, from Algerian regions into the Fezzan regions of Libya. I would say this categoric area must include northern Niger as well.
It seems clear that the 'arm daggers' are but one prevalent form of Tuareg daggers, and that that characteristic feature seems to predominate in those areas. The other type, more of a belt dagger resides congruently but more in other areas perhaps .

Turning to scabbards, while we agree these must be a secondary classification feature, one thing I notice is the distinctive open loop on the tip of the scabbard. These seem to prevail on Hausa or Nupe weapons in the same 'corridor' from N. Nigeria into Algeria and Libya.

It is tempting to think that the 'arm ring' form of telek is situated more to Algerian, Libyan, and Niger regions as the same feature is well known on much smaller daggers worn in the same manner as Sudan. This is of course by free association and realizing such arbitrary assumption is easily defeated, however worthy of note.

Naturally most of what I am observing is from research hoping to learn more on these Tuareg daggers, and I look forward to your thoughts as well of course as hoping for Iain to join in. Its fascinating to learn more on weapons I have known little on, and I appreciate the knowledge you guys openly share here.

Thank you Jim , jolly interesting . BTW my Thin Read Line moniker derives from the name of my former business as a seller of out of print British military books ... and of course is a typical silly English play on words !