A rapier by Pietro Hernandez

fernando · 2nd April 2017, 06:26 PM

Sorry my ignorance but, looking at Jean-Luc's sword grip, we see that the ferrules are not the traditional turks heads. Could this be another period 'locking' version in its genuine wired grip?

.

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2017, 01:07 AM

Absolutely outstanding detail and research Fernando!!!! Thank you!!!
Thank you as well for the explanation on the quote, these pithy philosophical axioms in Latin can be pretty cryptic.

Actually I am unclear on how this discussion is 'hijacking' this thread, as we are covering material which directly applies to the name inscribed on this blade, in variant manner, markings, the hilt styling etc.. The fact that we are adding detailed material on the circumstances of the times, conventions in use in application of marks and names and the very economic climate of the times which might bring certain conditions to bear.

While examining items posted by participants here for comment, it seems that observation and discussion, as we have shared here and on others have given us remarkable historic perspective through these very items.
In the case of these Spanish swords, you have shared amazing detail from resources most of us have no access to, and kindly translated and qualified the material to help us understand these weapons better.

Again, my sincere thanks, and I am getting writers cramp from furiously adding all this to my sheaves of notes!

P.S on the unusual ferrules.....I hadn't noticed! The plot thickens!

fernando · 3rd April 2017, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... P.S. on the unusual ferrules.....I hadn't noticed! The plot thickens!

I was thinking of posting my rapier to discussed Jean-Luc's example, as to presume both hilts have significant similarity. Mine is clearly marked and signed Alonzo Simon, a Toledo master recorded in 1608-1617.
Perhaps the grip wiring and the turk's heads are not the original; you never know, with folks out there able to re-do these things so well.
Speaking of hilts not being original to the blades, i came across an essay by Virgilio Martinez Enamorado on the protocol sword of Nasrid Sultan Muhammed V (1338-1391), which blade has epic inscriptions, those apparently trancribed in the walls of the Alhambra Patio de los Arraianes. When it came to comment on the sword hilt assumedly not being the original one, the author reminds the Arab concept in that (in my words), it is the blade that has primary significance and not the hilt, as also in man is not his turbant that counts but the man himself.

.

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2017, 05:35 PM

Excellent Fernando! So it is a 'Z' QED!!!!
NO, not 'Zorro'!!! but compelling to think of Zaragoza!!!
There are numbers of initials used which do not seem to necessarily align with the Christian names of the master using the punzon, so that I must look into more.

Your example is amazing as well! and the pommel indeed very much is like Jean Luc's only truncated. As you note, turks heads are often later added, much like changing gaskets when valve cover is off on engine.
On that note.....that analogy is outstanding on hilt/blade.... and well placed in present context.......not the TURBAN but the man.....not the hilt....but the blade!!!

2nd April 2017, 06:26 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Another thing ... Sorry my ignorance but, looking at Jean-Luc's sword grip, we see that the ferrules are not the traditional turks heads. Could this be another period 'locking' version in its genuine wired grip? .

3rd April 2017, 01:07 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Absolutely outstanding detail and research Fernando!!!! Thank you!!! Thank you as well for the explanation on the quote, these pithy philosophical axioms in Latin can be pretty cryptic. Actually I am unclear on how this discussion is 'hijacking' this thread, as we are covering material which directly applies to the name inscribed on this blade, in variant manner, markings, the hilt styling etc.. The fact that we are adding detailed material on the circumstances of the times, conventions in use in application of marks and names and the very economic climate of the times which might bring certain conditions to bear. While examining items posted by participants here for comment, it seems that observation and discussion, as we have shared here and on others have given us remarkable historic perspective through these very items. In the case of these Spanish swords, you have shared amazing detail from resources most of us have no access to, and kindly translated and qualified the material to help us understand these weapons better. Again, my sincere thanks, and I am getting writers cramp from furiously adding all this to my sheaves of notes! P.S on the unusual ferrules.....I hadn't noticed! The plot thickens!

3rd April 2017, 05:35 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Excellent Fernando! So it is a 'Z' QED!!!! NO, not 'Zorro'!!! but compelling to think of Zaragoza!!! There are numbers of initials used which do not seem to necessarily align with the Christian names of the master using the punzon, so that I must look into more. Your example is amazing as well! and the pommel indeed very much is like Jean Luc's only truncated. As you note, turks heads are often later added, much like changing gaskets when valve cover is off on engine. On that note.....that analogy is outstanding on hilt/blade.... and well placed in present context.......not the TURBAN but the man.....not the hilt....but the blade!!!