Ballock Daggers

Cerjak · 1st April 2017, 06:41 PM

I have forgot to mention the size.
Dagger with cruciform section blade O.L. 35 cm ; blade L. 23.5 cm
Dagger with triangular section blade O.L. 34 cm ; blade L. 22 cm
There is 2 marks on the cruciforme shaped blade .
any information about these marks would be welcome.

Best
Cerjak

Jim McDougall · 2nd April 2017, 01:54 AM

As an arms historian, my greatest pleasure is seeing examples which are often in rugged to excavated condition, as these are the ones which give us the look into real time history. These two are classic cases, and after the research I have done on them, I am inclined to agree with Marius on the 16th century period.
The 'ballock' dagger (a term altered to 'kidney' dagger by uncomfortable Victorians) apparently has been around since about 1300. It seems that by around latter 14th they were well known on the Continent and in the British Isles.
In looking into the marks on the blade of the one example, these marks are placed in accord with what seems a standard marking location on knife blades of these times. According to "Knives and Scabbards" (Cowgill; DeNeergaard and Griffiths, London, 1987, p.20)...marks became increasingly common on 14th c knives and by end of century over half knives were marked". It is also noted makers of Cutlers Company were compulsory by the end of the 16th century.

It is interesting that this pair of marks (which I could not find in this reference nor others at this point) seem to be a bell, and rather than a 'T', perhaps a 'tau' cross. These kinds of marks and others with ecclesiastic connotations may be associated with the fact that churches were often responsible for weaponry and materials and blacksmiths and arms furbishers were part of these compounds. While these seem more in league with guild or cutlers type punzones, it is possible they may be in this category which was of course not recorded in such manner, and simply property type marks.
I am not sure how these might be compared, but it seemed worthy of note.

H.L.Peterson ("Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World", 1968, p.28, notes that in early years of the 15th century grips were flared into an inverted cone shape ending in a flat butt usually covered by a metal plate.
(as these seem to correspond to). In the early 16th it seems that the basal part of the hilt began to have extended 'arms' parallel to the blade, so these may be latter 15th, though transitions were varied according to regions etc.

Battara · 2nd April 2017, 03:02 AM

I think these are pretty good for relic or excavated condition.

Jim McDougall · 2nd April 2017, 04:41 AM

I think this might be it:
In 1095 an Order of Hospitallers of St. Antonite was formed by a French nobleman.
In 1441, an Antonine confraternity was founded in England. Its members wore an amulet of a tau cross with a bell beneath.
It was often key to have a place for a relic, such as the compartment in the pommel as a reliquary.

mariusgmioc · 2nd April 2017, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think this might be it:
In 1095 an Order of Hospitallers of St. Antonite was formed by a French nobleman.
In 1441, an Antonine confraternity was founded in England. Its members wore an amulet of a tau cross with a bell beneath.
It was often key to have a place for a relic, such as the compartment in the pommel as a reliquary.

Very, very interesting! Thank you Jim!

The second I saw the marking, I thought that the main mark looks exactly like a Maltese Cross missing one arm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospit...of_St._Anthony

I think you nailed it!

Cerjak · 2nd April 2017, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think this might be it:
In 1095 an Order of Hospitallers of St. Antonite was formed by a French nobleman.
In 1441, an Antonine confraternity was founded in England. Its members wore an amulet of a tau cross with a bell beneath.
It was often key to have a place for a relic, such as the compartment in the pommel as a reliquary.

Jim

You have made an outstanding research! the identification of the Tau cross with the belt is a very important discovery. Also the cruciform section of the blade is not so common on ballock dagger.
Again, thank you very much for your interest and the time you have spent.
Best

Jean-Luc

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2017, 12:48 AM

Jean Luc and Marius thank you for the very kind words. I got really lucky on this, and it was pretty exciting to find such an esoteric connection and early date for this great example of 'ballock'.
Thank you for adding the illustrations and detail to augment this find, and so our archives will now have this material for future researches.

Cerjak · 5th April 2017, 08:37 AM

The Très Riches Heures du Duc de Berry is probably the most important illuminated manuscript of the 15th century, It was painted sometime between 1412 and 1416 by the Limbourg brothers for their patron Jean, Duc de Berry. They left it unfinished at their (and the Duc’s) death in 1416. Charles I, Duc de Savoie commissioned Jean Colombe to finish the paintings between 1485-1489

1st April 2017, 06:41 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	I have forgot to mention the size. Dagger with cruciform section blade O.L. 35 cm ; blade L. 23.5 cm Dagger with triangular section blade O.L. 34 cm ; blade L. 22 cm There is 2 marks on the cruciforme shaped blade . any information about these marks would be welcome. Best Cerjak Attached Images

2nd April 2017, 01:54 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	As an arms historian, my greatest pleasure is seeing examples which are often in rugged to excavated condition, as these are the ones which give us the look into real time history. These two are classic cases, and after the research I have done on them, I am inclined to agree with Marius on the 16th century period. The 'ballock' dagger (a term altered to 'kidney' dagger by uncomfortable Victorians) apparently has been around since about 1300. It seems that by around latter 14th they were well known on the Continent and in the British Isles. In looking into the marks on the blade of the one example, these marks are placed in accord with what seems a standard marking location on knife blades of these times. According to "Knives and Scabbards" (Cowgill; DeNeergaard and Griffiths, London, 1987, p.20)...marks became increasingly common on 14th c knives and by end of century over half knives were marked". It is also noted makers of Cutlers Company were compulsory by the end of the 16th century. It is interesting that this pair of marks (which I could not find in this reference nor others at this point) seem to be a bell, and rather than a 'T', perhaps a 'tau' cross. These kinds of marks and others with ecclesiastic connotations may be associated with the fact that churches were often responsible for weaponry and materials and blacksmiths and arms furbishers were part of these compounds. While these seem more in league with guild or cutlers type punzones, it is possible they may be in this category which was of course not recorded in such manner, and simply property type marks. I am not sure how these might be compared, but it seemed worthy of note. H.L.Peterson ("Daggers and Fighting Knives of the Western World", 1968, p.28, notes that in early years of the 15th century grips were flared into an inverted cone shape ending in a flat butt usually covered by a metal plate. (as these seem to correspond to). In the early 16th it seems that the basal part of the hilt began to have extended 'arms' parallel to the blade, so these may be latter 15th, though transitions were varied according to regions etc. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 2nd April 2017 at 04:42 AM.

5th April 2017, 08:37 AM	#8
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Ballock daggers in art The Très Riches Heures du Duc de Berry is probably the most important illuminated manuscript of the 15th century, It was painted sometime between 1412 and 1416 by the Limbourg brothers for their patron Jean, Duc de Berry. They left it unfinished at their (and the Duc’s) death in 1416. Charles I, Duc de Savoie commissioned Jean Colombe to finish the paintings between 1485-1489 Attached Images

2nd April 2017, 03:02 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	I think these are pretty good for relic or excavated condition.

2nd April 2017, 04:41 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	I think this might be it: In 1095 an Order of Hospitallers of St. Antonite was formed by a French nobleman. In 1441, an Antonine confraternity was founded in England. Its members wore an amulet of a tau cross with a bell beneath. It was often key to have a place for a relic, such as the compartment in the pommel as a reliquary.

3rd April 2017, 12:48 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Jean Luc and Marius thank you for the very kind words. I got really lucky on this, and it was pretty exciting to find such an esoteric connection and early date for this great example of 'ballock'. Thank you for adding the illustrations and detail to augment this find, and so our archives will now have this material for future researches.