A rapier by Pietro Hernandez

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I am NOT presuming to have any expertise of these subjects...

Jim, you can not presume that simply beause you are an expert; all we common mortals can do, is tease your faculties .
I don’t have Valentine’s work, or any other source from where i could have learnt that the Hernandez family was composed with Sebastian and Pedro and not of two Sebastians. My daring questioning such assumption is firstly because, according by both Palomares and also common sense, calling one person the older (el viejo) and the other the younger (el mozo) implicate that both had the same name. Not that Palomares nomina is not full of imprecisions but, so are other authors namely, for one, on what touches smiths ages and or their acting periods. Sebastian the elder could not have worked until 1600 (per Valentine) as also could not be alive in 1637 (per Palomares); according to a source i repute as accurate, he died in 1584.
This also takes somehow to questioning the working period of Pedro, if he were Sebastian’s son he could well have started working some time during (and learning with) his father’s activity, and not so much later. More consistent is the listing of Sebastian the younger, so much because, besides the said nomination of 'el mozo' he was entitled to use the same mark … whereas Pedro had a completely different array of punzones.
On the other hand, the spotting of blades made by Sebastian el mozo seem to be (for me) a hard task, as also that of his actual age or working activity, which would help a better confrontation of data.
The suggestion that Pedro is not mentioned by Palomares and del Canto (?) having as a reason the probability that he was absent from Toledo, may have some 'competition'; Palomares resourced the data one or two centuries after 'all' smiths existence and, what he did was checking on their archived marking irons and mostly on their blades, at least on (both) those he got hand of. It seems as, surprinsingly both Palomares father and son, despite having access to archives, including vital eclesiastic ones, didn’t resource much on such means. Perhaps a useful detail for perusal is to remind that it was Francisco Santiago Palomares who advanced with the material for the nomina but it was his son Francisco Javier who actually made it; and it was only several decades afterwards that this work was echoed, by Achille Jubinal whom, being a French man, corrupted some the smiths names spellings.
On the other hand, and as already mentioned in my previous post, it is clear that Pietro is not a mispelling of Pedro but an intentional attitude; whether being Pedro using an italianized version of his name to 'please' Italian clients with his export blades, an hypothesis suggested by a member in an earlier thread, or some Italian smith’s atempt to take advantage of the Spanish master prestige. It is simply implausible that Pedro Hernandez, as illiterate as he might (might) have been, made such surgical confusion with his own name.
Concerning Jean-Luc's discussed beautiful sword and waving considerations on its style and typology, is something i can not reach, due to ignorance and laziness to compare it to those in books, like Walace and Norman. But when brain storming on marks and smiths, we are aware that those are about blades, independently from the hilts they are mounted on as, so often the smith that forges the blade and takes historical advantage of having attached his mark and name on the result of his work, is not the same who makes the guards, or grips, or pommels or scabbards for the sword.

Attached a picture of Dom Francisco Santiago Palomares, at the age of 48.


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[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando!
It is very interesting to learn that there are even more players and compounding in this litany of intrigue, as I had no idea the Palomares factor was doubled and that the son had a hand in compiling this data. I had forgotten about Jubinal who came in later as well.
It seem as though historical record is of course typically recorded later, by individuals searching contemporary sources and narratives with people like ourselves doing the same thing in later generations.

This is very much the reason that history itself is always 'a work in progress', and as described by some as 'always changing'. We cannot realize in the moment that what we are seeing, doing, and witnessing is indeed history, so we are not likely to record things we see as every day or significant. Even unusual events we do not think to record as the stir of it wears away. Most of these records we are observing were administrative matters which were perused by these later writers, and as we know, such records are often disheveled and inaccurate (I look at my own financial records! eek!).

[fernando]

Ipse se nihil scire id unum sciat .

[Jim McDougall]

The well known paradox of Socrates seems well placed here, as we struggle with these conundrums and feel very much the same as challenged by these perplexing dilemmas.

In my latest round of research, I discover we have had this very discussion on the Hernadez' before, in 2014, but this time I think we have much better traction.

I think I most agree with Fernando's suggestion ( post #8) in that the use of the 'PIETRO' alternate for PEDRO in Italian parlance was likely a condition of attitude, meant as a pretense toward the fashion of the times toward the art of fencing. While Italy had been a leader in arms and armour design and fashioning as well as development of fencing, the Spaniards were by the advent of the 17th century developing their own abstruse mathematically oriented style of swordsmanship.
In 1561, the Spanish Royal Court moved from Toledo to Madrid, and the demise of industry, particularly the premiere sword production factor was quickly faltering.
We know that Sebastian Hernandez (el Viejo) was working in Toledo c. 1570, as of course were so many of the old masters, but by 1594, Toledo's population had been decimated. Accordingly, the swordsmiths had decreased but in what numbers is unclear.
It does seem that movement of many of them to other Spanish centers was likely, and with Sebastian Hernandez, the compelling (but unproven) suggestion that the crowned '3' he used may have been the letter 'Z' (presumably Zaragoza, one of the other centers). In any case, according to Fernando's notes (which I consider most reliable), Sebastian had passed in 1584.
This date is significant because of the numbers of blades attributed to him well through the 17th century and positively illustrating the spurious use of his name by German makers long after he was gone .
Accordingly, the German makers applied known Spanish punzones and other marks incongruently with his name. These same 'mismatched' conditions occur on numbers of other blades known to be German as is well known.

Turning to Pedro Hernandez, though not listed in Palomares and el Canto, he is in other sources as of Toledo 1610-30. What is most significant with Pedro is that he (or someone using his name) used a punzon of a crucifix, and that (or variations) was also used by several other known German makers. This suggests either he was indeed in Solingen working, or other German makers were using his name, just as with Sebastian's.

The Renaissance had placed Italy at the fore in many aspects in addition as mentioned besides arms, and it would seem that in early 17th century, these influences would have been well in place. If Pedro was in fact in Germany, and using his already influential name, Hernandez, perhaps a pretentious attitude might have compelled the use of PIETRO in the inscription on this blade. The very attractive hilt here, as I mentioned, does seem to carry a certain Italian gestalt, particularly the pommel and asymmetrical 'attitude', and coupled with the name, Italianized, would have been a remarkably stylish choice for a gentleman of the period.
This emphasis on style would be heightened with the quality by the 'espadero del rey' on the blade, along with the significant 'half moon' which apparently was in itself well associated with that honorific.

It is important to note here that the Duchy of Milan was a Spanish province until the 18th century. With the decline of Toledo, not only the loss of its masters, but the dramatically increased use of famed Spanish names and well known marks and punzones became keenly established not only in Germany but Italy and other centers as described in the early to mid 17thc.
These circumstances provide many scenarios which may explain the inscription on this fine rapier.However only close hands on examination and comparison of its physical characteristics to other examples with known provenance or propensity of form to other identified examples will tell us more on its probable identity.

[Jim McDougall]

In my previous post, I neglected to respond to Fernando's well placed note on observing on swords such as this much agreed, very nice example posted by Jean Luc....in that our focus on the markings on the blade may very well be quite independent of the circumstances of the hilt.

Swords, particularly rapiers, were often refurbished numbers of times in their working lives, and these instances may have been to repair a damaged sword; to refurbish a blade with a new hilt aligned with changes in style or fashion. ..these were not only weapons, but status oriented accoutrements.

While the most common reason, other than damage or change in fashion, may have been a heirloom blade, there are numbers of cases where old hilts much more vintage than the blade are used. These cases are seen in a number of the swords in the Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962), where an 18th century German blade is mounted on a 17th century Spanish hilt etc.

When AVB Norman wrote his "The Rapier and Small Sword" in 1980, he noted that his focus was on the styling of the hilts, as blades were mostly a matter of trade and various acquisition while hilts were local and personal preference. He innovatively used portraiture primarily and some other art to establish the period and general locations for various hilt styles, and much in the same manner attended to pommels. The pommels are another hilt element subject to variation and acquisition often separate from its other components.

Therefore our observations on this blade may well be entirely incongruent with the hilt, thus provenance for the separate components might be notably different, even from different countries and periods.

[fernando]

Hi Jim, i just meant to say that Socrates knew nothing about these swords ... but he sure was a brain in other areas .

Just before jean-Luc decides he had enough of this hijacking his thread, let me post some loose notes on Pedro Hernandez.

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Starting by the sword sample of Jean-Luc we may discern the inscription in thr blade as being PIETRO HERNAN, one of the names variations connotated with the master, eventually one seen in two swords at the Instituto Valencioa de Don Juan, # 68 and 70. Being this collecction and sponsor of great prestige, one should consider this name variation to be a genuine one.
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Being of general knowledge that Italy and Spain interchanged in the period, among other stuff, sword blades, one may easily guess the logic in the two directions; Spanish blades moving to Italy due to their quality and those from Italy moving to Spain due to their medium/low cost. Assuming that blades would not serve final clients by their own, one may clearly realize that they would be imported with the purpose to garnish them with hilts (and scabbards) before being introduced in the market. While in the case of Italians mounting Spanish blades with local hilts, one may admit that they went on sale with high prices with all justice, we may guess (guess) how deceptive or trasparent would be the business with Spanish swords mounted with Italian blades.
Do not forget that, the difference in price between Spanish blades and those of other regions was dramatic.
According to Rafael M. Girón Pascual, in his work "Cruzando aceros", price of blades in reales, between 1627 - 1680, were the following per origin:

Toledo ....... 24 - 30
Germany ... 13 - 18
Toulouse
& France ... 11 - 11
Génova ...... 9 - 10

So far so good but, what one might not expect is who was importing these Itaian blades in Spain to increase their value were not general traders but actual smiths (Espaderos).... and prestigious ones.
See an example of Italian blades imported in Toledo between 1587-1621:
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Year -Quantity -Origin ------------- ----Seller --------------------Buyer ------------------------Price in reales
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1587 ... 338 ... Génova ................ Ansaldo ...............Pedro Hernández, espadero .......... ?
1590 ... 360 ... Génova ... Bocangelino y Baba ........... Pedro Hernández, espadero ........... 4

1593 ... 250 ... Milán ...... Juan Bautista Dosio ........... Lorenzo de la Fuente, espadero .......... ?
1621 ... 200 ... Génova ... Esteban Cebolín y A. Dungo ........ Francisco Díaz, espadero ......... 4,5

This information is enequivocal, as may be read in "La Monarquia Hispanica en tiempos del Quijote", there is an obligation of Pedro Hernandez, espadero in favor of Bocangelino-Baba, for the buying of two bales with 360 blades from Genova, at price 4 reales each, to be paid in two instalments, three and six months.
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According to Don Enrique de Leguina, en "Los Maestros Espaderos", containing an extensive list of smiths from all cities, we may read:
Hernández (Pedro) or Pietro (?). Sevilla. XVI century. Mark: big cross with two equal arms.
(Besides the two Sebastians father and son, not referenced as being Pedro's family).
Also we spot Pedro Hernandez in J. Gestaso Y Perez work, an epic compendium of all craftsmen of Seville, listing this espadero as having died in 1596. This is somehow confusing as Pedro was importing blades in Toledo 1590.
Could it be a different Pedro ... or has he first moved to Toledo and later came back to Seville for his last days?
And the 'Pietro' alias; was it because Pedro trade with Italy made him adopt such 'second' name ?.
Riddle, riddle, riddle


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[fernando]

Sorry my ignorance but, looking at Jean-Luc's sword grip, we see that the ferrules are not the traditional turks heads. Could this be another period 'locking' version in its genuine wired grip? .

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Jim, i just meant to say that Socrates knew nothing about swords ... but he sure was a brain in other areas .

As a veteran of several battles, in which he served with distinction, he must have known a thing or two about them…

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... and with Sebastian Hernandez, the compelling (but unproven) suggestion that the crowned '3' he used may have been the letter 'Z' ...

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