The half moon symbol in early Spanish swords

[fernando]

Thank you Jim; tenacity is not yet my middle name ... but i am working on it .
Yes, Beraiz is very determinate in that the term Bilbo originates in the city of Bilbao; actually the city name is spelt Bilbo in the local Basque (Euskera) language.
He is also consistent with other sources in that such naming of the sword is of British attribution, since there was intense trade between the Basques and the British Islands, being a fact that such sword hilt in local terminology was more connected to its shape, namely Bivalve, Conchas (shells), Venera (scallop) and even Medio caracolillo (half snail). Eventually this type of guard was also produced by Portuguese smiths, but note, there was a significant number of 'Biscainho' ( from Biscaia province, capital Bilbao) armourers labouring in Portugal by that time, as recorded.
But while this local terminology came with the later appearing of the typical guard/hilt, the Bilbo term was already in use with the British for the whole sword, such as mentioned by Shkespeare in his work.
Still the Bilbo sword/hilt should not be connected with the Bilbo shackle; besides Beraiz, we must also consider Oxford dictionaries in that such idea is a mith as, for one, such shackle alias was already in use before Shakespeare. Actually some make a point to use the plural form for the shackle version, that is Bilboes.
Concerning the steel used by Toledan masters for their blades, it is of course beyond any doubt that they favoured that from Mondragon but, it is my impression that, the Bilbo term if ever used in such context would be that of relating the steel provenance, that not calling it as such.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you Jim; tenacity is not yet my middle name ... but i am working on it .
Yes, Beraiz is very determinate in that the term Bilbo originates in the city of Bilbao; actually the city name is spelt Bilbo in the local Basque (Euskera) language.
He is also consistent with other sources in that such naming of the sword is of British attribution, since there was intense trade between the Basques and the British Islands, being a fact that such sword hilt in local terminology was more connected to its shape, namely Bivalve, Conchas (shells), Venera (scallop) and even Medio caracolillo (half snail). Eventually this type of guard was also produced by Portuguese smiths, but note, there was a significant number of 'Biscainho' ( from Biscaia province, capital Bilbao) armourers labouring in Portugal by that time, as recorded.
But while this local terminology came with the later appearing of the typical guard/hilt, the Bilbo term was already in use with the British for the whole sword, such as mentioned by Shkespeare in his work.
Still the Bilbo sword/hilt should not be connected with the Bilbo shackle; besides Beraiz, we must also consider Oxford dictionaries in that such idea is a mith as, for one, such shackle alias was already in use before Shakespeare. Actually some make a point to use the plural form for the shackle version, that is Bilboes.
Concerning the steel used by Toledan masters for their blades, it is of course beyond any doubt that they favoured that from Mondragon but, it is my impression that, the Bilbo term if ever used in such context would be that of relating the steel provenance, that not calling it as such.

Interesting reference about Shakespeare who does in fact mention the shakles, however, that can be viewed at

https://openliterature.net/2010/04/0...the-day-bilbo/ which focusses on two derivitives of the word in two different settings. One is a sword the other shackles;

Quote" “The mutinies in the bilboes” are sailors or soldiers convicted of mutiny and punished by being attached to “A long iron bar, furnished with sliding shackles to confine the ankles of prisoners, and a lock by which to fix one end of the bar to the floor or ground”. Good quality spanish iron prevented any thoughts of escape, but was pliable enough to be shaped into shackles. Hamlet mentioning the word may also suggest that his thoughts are already turning towards his duel with Laertes, which may well have been conducted with bilbo-swords."Unquote.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando for the additional views into some this Spanish terminology , particularly the fondness of using metaphoric terms describing sword hilts.
Ibrahiim, thank you for that great link, which well describes the term Bilbo/bilboes and the uses of the term.

It does seem the term Bilbo for swords was in use for some time before Shakespeare's writing of course, but how widespread the use was is hard to say. We know the Toledo smiths were most enamored of the Basque iron, just as well aware of the Toledo blades, so these kinds of colloquial terms were well used in Shakespeare's work.
It is the same with Shakespeares reference to the 'fox', which of course denotes the 'wolf of Passau' then used in Solingen, so a colloquial for fine bladed sword.

It is interesting to see these terms in context of period literature and how they were used in real time conversational situations.

Regarding the connection between 'shackles' and the 'bilbo' swords, obviously it is a strained connection, but it must be remembered that blade makers and blacksmiths were not all that far apart. Often blade smiths doubled in producing other metalwork of far more domestic nature with knives of course, or farm implements in these earlier times. I have often thought that there must have been occasions when these workers might have used images of such items as their trademark.

[Gonzalo G]

I have not read this thread when I posted a reply in the thread about the rapier of the 17th Century. In general I concurr with Fernando about the supposed stamps of the Maestro Espadero del Rey. I don´t believe that some symbols have deep esoteric meaning, nor I believe the Spaniards or Portuguese, very practical people, have special inclination in this sense, different from the deep religiosity of protestant Europe. I think it is only one of the many stereotypes made about the different nations in the world.

Putting non-catholic esoteric stamps on the Spanish blades, on the other side, was dangerous and too public. Don´t forget the Inquisition, which was burning prople by hundreds. Maybe the moor and jew converts dared, but not the Spaniards or Portuguese, though some Spaniards accused the Portuguese of beign jews most of them!! The jewish followers of the Cábala were few and all of them emigrated or were expelled from Spain. A kind of esoterism was common in the whole medieval occidental Europe, as you can see in the symbols from cathedrals, churches and chapels from Germany to England, asociated with the guilds of craftsmen. Maybe it can be reflected in the choosing of certain stamps on the sword blades, but not signaling a real involment in those beliefs. Maybe reminiscences from the old religions and the cultural influence of judaism and islam, which is greater than the European historians recognize, but not real involvement in deep beliefs.

Don´t forget that not only in Toledo were great swordsmiths. In Valencia, some towns in Viscaya and even in Madrid, Granada and Sevilla, the two last beign the inheritors of the moor craftsmanship, produced great swords. In fact, the core of the initial Fábrica de Armas Blancas de Toledo was made with swordsmiths from Valencia, since in Toledo, as Fernando said, the craftmanship was dying, and few toledan espaderos remained and were incorporated. Unfortunately, the history of those non-toledan swordsmiths is less known.

Regards

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I have not read this thread when I posted a reply in the thread about the rapier of the 17th Century. In general I concurr with Fernando about the supposed stamps of the Maestro Espadero del Rey. I don´t believe that some symbols have deep esoteric meaning, nor I believe the Spaniards or Portuguese, very practical people, have special inclination in this sense, different from the deep religiosity of protestant Europe. I think it is only one of the many stereotypes made about the different nations in the world.

Putting non-catholic esoteric stamps on the Spanish blades, on the other side, was dangerous and too public. Don´t forget the Inquisition, which was burning prople by hundreds. Maybe the moor and jew converts dared, but not the Spaniards or Portuguese, though some Spaniards accused the Portuguese of beign jews most of them!! The jewish followers of the Cábala were few and all of them emigrated or were expelled from Spain. A kind of esoterism was common in the whole medieval occidental Europe, as you can see in the symbols from cathedrals, churches and chapels from Germany to England, asociated with the guilds of craftsmen. Maybe it can be reflected in the choosing of certain stamps on the sword blades, but not signaling a real involment in those beliefs. Maybe reminiscences from the old religions and the cultural influence of judaism and islam, which is greater than the European historians recognize, but not real involvement in deep beliefs.

Don´t forget that not only in Toledo were great swordsmiths. In Valencia, some towns in Viscaya and even in Madrid, Granada and Sevilla, the two last beign the inheritors of the moor craftsmanship, produced great swords. In fact, the core of the initial Fábrica de Armas Blancas de Toledo was made with swordsmiths from Valencia, since in Toledo, as Fernando said, the craftmanship was dying, and few toledan espaderos remained and were incorporated. Unfortunately, the history of those non-toledan swordsmiths is less known.

Regards

Salaams Gonzalo G, Please see the interesting detail of Toledo sword demise at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...smiths&f=false

[Gonzalo G]

Salaam aleikum, peace be upon you, Ibrahim. Yes, it is interesting, and I think it is true. Valencia also suffered even more by the increasing prosecution of the muslim population, which became in a rebellion and in a little war whose result was the killing or forced emigration of many craftsmen. Or, the forced conversion. Curiosly, some of the new converts to christianity, moors and jews, still discriminated, seek refuge in the Spanish American colonies, where they were integrated in the actual population.

But I don´t think the change of residence of the court was so important over the fall of the Toledo craftsmanship, since if the demand of swords have been continued, other centers of production would have risen. I think the growing impoverishment of the Spanish population, including substantial sectors of the low nobility, fueled by the hyperinflation caused by the gold and silver exacted from Mexico and Peru and the lack of development of the Spanish industrial and agricultural productivity, and also the costly and growingly ruinous wars of Spain, trying to maintain their hegemony in Europe, were the main reasons. Spain overeached its capacity instead of consolidated it.

Regards