The flowers on the tulwar hilts

Jim McDougall · 18th March 2017, 06:01 PM

Very well noted of course Jens, and the question of the intent behind the artisan's depiction of flowers and botanical themes can only be speculated.

It is often argued that in such creations, shapes and devices in either the decoration or fashioning of design elements are simply aesthetic. However, in many circumstances where there are mystical, religious, or other situations at hand we must consider the possibility of otherwise.

As we look at the flowers on this khanjhari, which are noted to have varying numbers of petals, it is tempting to consider that perhaps gemetria with mystical or magical properties could be in play.
It would seem that the preparation of a simple petaled flower in silver in a group would be easier if all the same. With the case that there are two (2) of the eight petaled flower, could this be a gemetric or magic number as with the 1414 and 1441 etc on European blades?

Though perhaps a specious exercise, and quite possibly a simple matter of aesthetics or coincidence as so often insisted, the idea is interesting if not nearly compelling.

As with anything artistic, there are always nuances, and in cases flowers may have been portrayed symbolically in a metaphoric sense. Also, as I believe Markel noted, the accuracy and detail of many floral themes degenerated along with the decay of the Mughal Empire, and as artisans failed to pass on their skills in generations following.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 18th March 2017, 06:59 PM

I understand that precise botanical studies of flora were passed on or sought by the Mughal painters so that greater accuracy could be attained ...There are many examples of inaccuracies in design and colour and it was only when companies such as EIC became involved that true scientific drawings could be referred to...as outlined at #63 above viz;

Quote."What seems odd is that the zenith of floral paintings seems to be at the time Dara Shiko was inspired to have artists view flowers especially vases filled with blosoms...and more weirdly influenced by European (EIC) styles which were copied in an attempt to show more realism in Moghul art.

The prime reasoning behind accepting into Moghul Art the European exactness of botanical studies in floral form was that it enabled greater accuracy in colours and in lifelike portrayals of subject matter". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th March 2017, 08:07 PM

I will add that ~In respect of the above post ~For the original document by JP Losty see http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/...spiration.html

Jens Nordlunde · 19th March 2017, 09:58 PM

Ibrahiim, the thing about floral decoration is not only about the floral decoration about the time of Dara Shiko (1615-1659). THe floral decoration was used centuries before and after.
Some years ago I had a PM discussion with a member on this forum. The thing was, that he was a botanic, and he did not recognise the different flowers, but being a scientist, he would, of course, want more prof than shown on most weapons, and I respect him for this.
More artistic writers/scholars are freer in their judgement which flowers are shown on the weapons, but they also warn that the number of petals should not always be taken too serious.
So this leaves the rest of us guessing, but it is sure that the poppy flower was very popular, and so was the sun flower in the south.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th March 2017, 07:07 PM

I think Hindu Arms and Ritual by Robert Elgood chapter 13 explains a lot of what we are discussing.

Jim McDougall · 20th March 2017, 08:25 PM

Chapter 13 of "Hindu Arms and Armour" (Robert Elgood, 2004) does attend to certain aspects of the flower, and notably botanical symbolism in various instances in Indian tradition and culture. Here he makes a compelling comment which specifies 'plants', however in the context of the narrative notes, " ...it follows that a plant depicted on a weapon is likely to represent more than its decorative value". This would seem to imply that a flower would be afforded the same circumstance.

The convention of flowers as a leitmotif for opposing armies and signifying various situations toward battle, victory and other symbolic use seems to have deep history beyond India alone. Elgood does note that the Tamils in antiquity did use flowers as dynastic symbols (p.130) but these were later replaced.
As the book concerns Hindu tradition and culture of course he tends to many aspects of the very botanical nature of their symbolism in material culture and in ritual. One flower in particular that seems to be broadly depicted and used in Hindu culture is the lotus (the red flower of the goddess Kali ). The 'generative' aspect of the bud of the lotus is often depicted as well, such as on the pommel of many tulwars.

Turning to the depiction of flowers on the weapons, I looked into Pant (1980) who has the chapter on 'decoration'. The entire text is focused on technique in application, metalwork, enameling, jewels and styling, but like other references to the sumptuous Mughal hilts....the only specification is the type of jewels used....a flower is simply described....'flower'.

Other references describing the decoration and motif on hilts are much the same, and even in Elgood concerning the red flower symbol of Kali (op. cit. p.131) what is described is the 'red lotus stone' of the goddess..a ruby.

In reading through most of the descriptions of the Mughal emperors, there seems to have been a considerable degree of tolerance, if not even fascination with, aspects of other religions and cultures. The properties and symbolisms associated were in varying degrees filtered into Mughal arts.

It does seem however, most of the discussion of these situations, the attention is toward the material culture of artwork and various objects, with very little direction toward application on weapons. In the literature on arms, it is as if the author observing the examples considers that the characteristically nuanced or subtle depictions of flowers or plants are not relevant to the character or theme of the weapon.

Robert Elgood and Stephen Markel have offered us the most insight and best foothold into this esoteric topic, but it will take remarkable tenacity and serious study to advance. This has been the reason for this thread and others related, and hopefully others reading who have background in the study of Indian art and culture might join with their thoughts and observations.
Meanwhile other collectors may bring in examples for examination and discussion, just as Jens has always done with his amazing collection items.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st March 2017, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim, the thing about floral decoration is not only about the floral decoration about the time of Dara Shiko (1615-1659). THe floral decoration was used centuries before and after.
Some years ago I had a PM discussion with a member on this forum. The thing was, that he was a botanic, and he did not recognise the different flowers, but being a scientist, he would, of course, want more prof than shown on most weapons, and I respect him for this.
More artistic writers/scholars are freer in their judgement which flowers are shown on the weapons, but they also warn that the number of petals should not always be taken too serious.
So this leaves the rest of us guessing, but it is sure that the poppy flower was very popular, and so was the sun flower in the south.

Salaams Jens Nordlunde, I pause deliberately on the scope of time spanned by the Dareo Shikoh period since it offers the study of a certain spike in floral artwork and has an intriguing air to it surrounded by treachery and subterfuge so typical in the Machiavellian discourse inside the Mughal ruling family which would eventually end in disaster for the young prince who came very close to fusing together two great religions through his ideas on floral artwork/talsimanic expression etc.

In terms of the style we recognise as floral Indian work it is clear that the fashion ebbed and flowed across the period and according to various documents viz;

Quote''The floral and plant motifs predominate in the decorative repertoire of Mughal India. The combination of the naturalistic yet subtly stylized treatment of Mughal flowers, together with their balanced and symmetrical arrangement, is emblematic of Mughal taste in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, when the floral motif became a leitmotiv that permeated all the arts of the court (textiles and decorative arts, arts of the book) and even architecture. This fascination with the floral motif can be traced back to the reign of the Emperor Jahangir. It originated during a journey made by Jahangir in 1620 to Kashmir, a country where the emperor was enchanted by the variety and profusion of the flowers which grew there, and which he was subsequently wont to describe as “a garden where spring reigns eternally”. During this trip the monarch was accompanied by one of the great masters of the imperial atelier of painting, the animal painter Ustâd Mansûr Nâdir al’Asr, who, at the request of the sovereign, executed more than a hundred flower studies, of which only three precious examples still survive.

This poetic delight in the exuberant blossoming flowers of Kashmir was reinforced by the discovery of European herbals brought to the Mughal court by Jesuit missionaries and agents of the East India Company''.Unquote.

For interest I added the final paragraph above to encompass botanical detail fed into the arena by The EIC...

It would therefor seem that although Indian work may have contained a broad spectrum of floral content down the ages that in fact these floral peaks and troughs included concentrated periods where the fashion was exaggerated no more so perhaps than in the Daro Shikoh time frame. I point to the 1630s as a key time frame when such influence blossomed viz;

Quote"Hindu decorative style would be influenced by floral art for centuries and become apparent in architecture, weaponry and virtually all forms of artistic work in the entire universal Hindu pallet of arts...In fact this was not always the case..Jahangir’s passion for natural history was not inherited by his son Shah Jahan and grandson Dara Shikoh. It was during the 1630s that flowers and floral arrangements with their decorative possibilities came to dominate Mughal textiles and the adornment of architecture and album pages. See http://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/mughal-india/ '' Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th March 2017, 04:45 PM

Ibrahiim, what we have discussed so far are the decorations inlaid or in koftgari, but there are others - the steel cut ones, and they go back far longer.
At the same time I am not so sure, that the disc decoration and the hilt decoration are connected, they could be, but I have my doubt, as to me the disc decoration seems not to change in the same way as the hilt decoration does - after fashion.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st March 2017, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim, what we have discussed so far are the decorations inlaid or in koftgari, but there are others - the steel cut ones, and they go back far longer.
At the same time I am not so sure, that the disc decoration and the hilt decoration are connected, they could be, but I have my doubt, as to me the disc decoration seems not to change in the same way as the hilt decoration does - after fashion.

I have done a comparison on this thread looking at both hilt and disc pommels and find that most are of the same decorative form whereas a few are not of the same style. I conclude therefor that the two areas of decoration must be linked with a few exceptions.. Page 1 of this thread has many that are clearly linked. The pommel however does lend itself to a cyclic style simply because it is round thus sunburst form is common. I wondered if the general form of the pommel was related to the name Tulvar meaning flower and suggest that it looks similar to a poppy.

19th March 2017, 09:58 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahiim, the thing about floral decoration is not only about the floral decoration about the time of Dara Shiko (1615-1659). THe floral decoration was used centuries before and after. Some years ago I had a PM discussion with a member on this forum. The thing was, that he was a botanic, and he did not recognise the different flowers, but being a scientist, he would, of course, want more prof than shown on most weapons, and I respect him for this. More artistic writers/scholars are freer in their judgement which flowers are shown on the weapons, but they also warn that the number of petals should not always be taken too serious. So this leaves the rest of us guessing, but it is sure that the poppy flower was very popular, and so was the sun flower in the south. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 19th March 2017 at 10:13 PM.

18th March 2017, 06:01 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,486	Very well noted of course Jens, and the question of the intent behind the artisan's depiction of flowers and botanical themes can only be speculated. It is often argued that in such creations, shapes and devices in either the decoration or fashioning of design elements are simply aesthetic. However, in many circumstances where there are mystical, religious, or other situations at hand we must consider the possibility of otherwise. As we look at the flowers on this khanjhari, which are noted to have varying numbers of petals, it is tempting to consider that perhaps gemetria with mystical or magical properties could be in play. It would seem that the preparation of a simple petaled flower in silver in a group would be easier if all the same. With the case that there are two (2) of the eight petaled flower, could this be a gemetric or magic number as with the 1414 and 1441 etc on European blades? Though perhaps a specious exercise, and quite possibly a simple matter of aesthetics or coincidence as so often insisted, the idea is interesting if not nearly compelling. As with anything artistic, there are always nuances, and in cases flowers may have been portrayed symbolically in a metaphoric sense. Also, as I believe Markel noted, the accuracy and detail of many floral themes degenerated along with the decay of the Mughal Empire, and as artisans failed to pass on their skills in generations following.

18th March 2017, 06:59 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I understand that precise botanical studies of flora were passed on or sought by the Mughal painters so that greater accuracy could be attained ...There are many examples of inaccuracies in design and colour and it was only when companies such as EIC became involved that true scientific drawings could be referred to...as outlined at #63 above viz; Quote."What seems odd is that the zenith of floral paintings seems to be at the time Dara Shiko was inspired to have artists view flowers especially vases filled with blosoms...and more weirdly influenced by European (EIC) styles which were copied in an attempt to show more realism in Moghul art. The prime reasoning behind accepting into Moghul Art the European exactness of botanical studies in floral form was that it enabled greater accuracy in colours and in lifelike portrayals of subject matter". Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

19th March 2017, 08:07 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I will add that ~In respect of the above post ~For the original document by JP Losty see http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/...spiration.html

20th March 2017, 07:07 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I think Hindu Arms and Ritual by Robert Elgood chapter 13 explains a lot of what we are discussing.

20th March 2017, 08:25 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,486	Chapter 13 of "Hindu Arms and Armour" (Robert Elgood, 2004) does attend to certain aspects of the flower, and notably botanical symbolism in various instances in Indian tradition and culture. Here he makes a compelling comment which specifies 'plants', however in the context of the narrative notes, " ...it follows that a plant depicted on a weapon is likely to represent more than its decorative value". This would seem to imply that a flower would be afforded the same circumstance. The convention of flowers as a leitmotif for opposing armies and signifying various situations toward battle, victory and other symbolic use seems to have deep history beyond India alone. Elgood does note that the Tamils in antiquity did use flowers as dynastic symbols (p.130) but these were later replaced. As the book concerns Hindu tradition and culture of course he tends to many aspects of the very botanical nature of their symbolism in material culture and in ritual. One flower in particular that seems to be broadly depicted and used in Hindu culture is the lotus (the red flower of the goddess Kali ). The 'generative' aspect of the bud of the lotus is often depicted as well, such as on the pommel of many tulwars. Turning to the depiction of flowers on the weapons, I looked into Pant (1980) who has the chapter on 'decoration'. The entire text is focused on technique in application, metalwork, enameling, jewels and styling, but like other references to the sumptuous Mughal hilts....the only specification is the type of jewels used....a flower is simply described....'flower'. Other references describing the decoration and motif on hilts are much the same, and even in Elgood concerning the red flower symbol of Kali (op. cit. p.131) what is described is the 'red lotus stone' of the goddess..a ruby. In reading through most of the descriptions of the Mughal emperors, there seems to have been a considerable degree of tolerance, if not even fascination with, aspects of other religions and cultures. The properties and symbolisms associated were in varying degrees filtered into Mughal arts. It does seem however, most of the discussion of these situations, the attention is toward the material culture of artwork and various objects, with very little direction toward application on weapons. In the literature on arms, it is as if the author observing the examples considers that the characteristically nuanced or subtle depictions of flowers or plants are not relevant to the character or theme of the weapon. Robert Elgood and Stephen Markel have offered us the most insight and best foothold into this esoteric topic, but it will take remarkable tenacity and serious study to advance. This has been the reason for this thread and others related, and hopefully others reading who have background in the study of Indian art and culture might join with their thoughts and observations. Meanwhile other collectors may bring in examples for examination and discussion, just as Jens has always done with his amazing collection items.

30th March 2017, 04:45 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahiim, what we have discussed so far are the decorations inlaid or in koftgari, but there are others - the steel cut ones, and they go back far longer. At the same time I am not so sure, that the disc decoration and the hilt decoration are connected, they could be, but I have my doubt, as to me the disc decoration seems not to change in the same way as the hilt decoration does - after fashion.