"Malaysian kris/keris"

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

No offense taken, i assure you.
I don't believe, however, that anyone is really arguing that these non-Moro sundangs were manufactured on the Malay Peninsula. Despite Ian's title for this thread they are usually referred to as "Malay Sundangs" (not "Malaysian" as in the country of Malaysia) and belong to the Malay world. I also don't think that anyone would argue that there aren't people of Malay decent in the Philippines or their contribution to that culture, however i would say that it is debatable as to whether or not we should consider the Philippines as part of the "Malay World" in our discussion of their weapons. Though not always the best source i will cite a section of a Wikipedia article that speaks to this debate.

"The Philippines doesn't have a significant ethnic Malay population today, and most if any, descendants of Malays have been assimilated into the general culture, characterized by Spanish influence and Roman Catholicism. Malay influence is still strong in the culturally conservative regions of Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago, whose' people actually reject being called Filipino, and to some extent, in Visayas as well where much Malay involvement came during the classical era. These three island groups are where most Filipinos of Malay descent live.
In the modern-day, the closest population to Malays are the Moro people, the native Muslim population of the Philippines that inhabit Mindanao, Sulu Archipelago, parts of Visayas and the Quiapo district in Manila. They follow a culture and lifestyle similar to Malays.
There is an often a lot of confusion in the Philippines between "ethnic Malays" and "Malay race", a term coined for brown-skinned Austronesian natives of not only the Philippines, but also of Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Singapore and Thailand. The country had its own Malay nationalism, un-associated with the anti-colonial struggle in the British and Dutch East Indies. The Philippine nationalism occurred albeit the end of Spanish occupation and spearheaded by José Rizal. Unlike the Malay nationalism and "Malayness" in Indonesia and Malaysia which was defined by Islam as well as being of the ethnic group, Rizal's movement was that of a secular vision to unify the natives of the Malay Archipelago and the Malay Peninsula, believing them to have falsely been divided by colonial powers."

That said, however, as collectors of edged weapons from these regions we have usually gone along with that division, falsely applied or not, between the Malay world and that of the Philippines when categorizing their weapons. So when one speaks of a "Malay Sundang" we are referring to a non-Moro weapon. This is not to say the blade did not originate from a Moro smith and, as i believe we all agree, most of these blades do seem to come form Moro origins. However, as you have yourself just admitted, you "have also seen the beautiful non Moro" Malay Sundang" that you mentioned and they were certainly not made to be souvenirs". So you seem to contradict the statement you made in post #11, which is what i was originally debating you on. You said there "The term Malay Sundang can thus refer to two different swords. It could refer to a Moro kris rehilted in the style of Malaysia or as A.G. Maisey pointed out, a product of a "long tradition of souvenir items."
I'm sorry, but this statement simply does not jive with what you said about non-Moro blades in the last paragraph of your last post.

Hi David,

For clarity, I will keep my reply simple:
1. First of all, wikipedia is not the best source of information. While useful, I do not consider it scholarly. On being Malay, like I said, some view Islam as a vital component, but not all. By the way, just fyi, historical societies of Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines are going to have an international conference on the Malay World this coming September in Manila (www.malayworldconference2017.com). They agree on being Malay.

2. Can you please cite a scholarly reference that actually uses that term Malay sundang?

3. I shared my observation that there is no proof of the traditional manufacture of Sundang in peninsular Malaysia. I pointed towards the evidences to support this and my other views. Can you please cite scholarly references for you arguments?

4. I did not contradict myself. My statement jives in the context of this thread. It just seems we have a different appreciation of terminologies which has led to confusion.

Regards,

F. de Luzon

[Battara]

I will add that some of what has been said may explain some of my observations:

I have noticed that some "Malay" kris blades look either very Maguindanao or Sulu (though others seem not to be very Moro).

On the Moro blades, the okir and inlays appear very Moro. So trade seems likely to me, but not all blades.