Pala - antique or repro?!

mariusgmioc · 6th March 2017, 06:17 PM

I wonder about a Kilij/Pala I aquired not so long ago.

What do you think about it?! Is it Turkish? Is it antique?

The blade has a perfect cutting build, sharp and nimble with several nicks like it has been used. Yet it is in very good condition and the koftgari is almost perfect.

Marius

mariusgmioc · 6th March 2017, 06:18 PM

more photos

Kubur · 6th March 2017, 06:21 PM

Hi Marius,
Nothing wrong, all good.
Excellent catch congrat! I want it!!
Best
Kubur

grendolino · 6th March 2017, 07:45 PM

The grip is wood what makes me a little suspicious. On the other hand I was always intersted where they had so broad horns from.

mariusgmioc · 6th March 2017, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grendolino

The grip is wood what makes me a little suspicious. On the other hand I was always intersted where they had so broad horns from.

Nope. The grip is horn, as it is clearly visible under 5x magnification.

Possibly rhino but it looks somehow different fom another one I have.

ariel · 6th March 2017, 08:11 PM

I do not think you have anything to worry about: 100% genuine.

asomotif · 6th March 2017, 08:54 PM

Call me paranoid, but I suspect this to be brand new made in China.

asomotif · 6th March 2017, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grendolino

The grip is wood what makes me a little suspicious. On the other hand I was always intersted where they had so broad horns from.

On picture nr. 3 it indeed looks like there is a "wood pattern".
But horn also has these lengthwise structures.

I think the horn is heated and bent in order to make a fitting piece for this type of hilt. Maybe the experts can comment on that...

mariusgmioc · 6th March 2017, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Call me paranoid, but I suspect this to be brand new made in China.

Yesss! That's what I suspected all along! Thank you for confirming my suspicions! Hurray, I'm not paranoid!

I started looking for the "Made in China" marking.

ariel · 6th March 2017, 09:56 PM

Yeah... China...:-)))

He simply wants you to sell it to him for 2 peanuts.
I can give you 4!!!
Any higher bidder?:-)))

Oliver Pinchot · 6th March 2017, 09:56 PM

It's perfectly authentic, second half of the 19th century. It's a later than average example and condition is quite good, showing very little wear. That said, the wiggle engraving on the mounts is probably later. It's likely they were plain silver originally.

In fact, Ottoman smiths did boil horn to make it flexible. Wooden grips aren't especially common but were certainly known.

Six peanuts, Ariel.

mariusgmioc · 6th March 2017, 11:04 PM

Thank you guys for comments!

But now that it is well established that it is made in China, I won't sell it for anything but Yuan.

Well... maybe peanuts too... but butter!

Kubur · 7th March 2017, 10:02 AM

[QUOTE=That said, the wiggle engraving on the mounts is probably later. It's likely they were plain silver originally.
[/QUOTE]

I don't think Oliver, the wiggle engravings are the same on scabbard and guard. This sword is perfectly coherent to me.

David R · 7th March 2017, 10:21 AM

If it is a repro' it's a very good one, more of a "new made in the tradition" rather than a fake. Also more likely Syria or India than China.
Myself, without having it in hand I would guess late 19th early 20th century "Ottoman Revival", or a dress sword, a nice piece and well worth having.

mariusgmioc · 7th March 2017, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

If it is a repro' it's a very good one, more of a "new made in the tradition" rather than a fake. Also more likely Syria or India than China.
Myself, without having it in hand I would guess late 19th early 20th century "Ottoman Revival", or a dress sword, a nice piece and well worth having.

Hi David and thank you for you comment!

The "made in China" issue was more like joke, and I concur with Oliver's opinion and yours, that it is a late 19th century Ottoman and I believe even Turkish sword.

Regards,

Marius

motan · 9th March 2017, 07:59 AM

Hi, I am certainly not an expert on any sword, but the style of decoration on the guard and sheath look Syrian to me. Kilij-type swords were made in Damascus well into the 20th century and were popular mainly with Bedu tribesmen. So this could be one of these. I don't know about the blade. It could be re-hafted and re-decorated older blade. The use of cow-horn in the grip is also consistent with late Syrian origin.

mariusgmioc · 9th March 2017, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hi, I am certainly not an expert on any sword, but the style of decoration on the guard and sheath look Syrian to me. Kilij-type swords were made in Damascus well into the 20th century and were popular mainly with Bedu tribesmen. So this could be one of these. I don't know about the blade. It could be re-hafted and re-decorated older blade. The use of cow-horn in the grip is also consistent with late Syrian origin.

Interesting point!

However, I do not think the scales are cow horm but rhinoceros. However, I am not certain , but under magnification, the horn appears to be made of many hairs joined together which is exactly how rhinoceros horn looks like.

motan · 9th March 2017, 12:19 PM

Just to illustrate my point. The first one is from 1900-1920. Look at the sword below. The second one is from the well-known Aref el Aref series from the 1930'. There are several types visible. The Bedu used every type availble, the most popular were kilij type hilt and calssical Syrian type with jus over 90 degrees bent pommel tip. Shashka type, Arabian saif/nimsha type and locally made "sinai" type were also common. Blades were whatever was available for re-hafting. It is no real evidence, but the kilij type was popular and I guess Damascus sword smiths kept making them. All said, this is not a typical Bedouin sword because the blade and blade decoration are real kilij.

Kubur · 9th March 2017, 01:50 PM

The pala presented by Marius is Turkish, or at least from the Balkans.
Your photos are very nice btw.

mariusgmioc · 9th March 2017, 01:52 PM

@ Motan

Very interesting indeed!

Thank you very much!

However, I believe the sheath with the silver thread joining of the leather on the front face of the scabbard is rather typical Turkish.

I am surprised to notice they wore their swords edge up.

@ Kubur,

I agree. I would have said Turkish but in the Balkans the styles were so much intertwined that it would be close to impossible to certainly allocate a precise geographical location.
Besides, there were many Turkish smiths who travelled with the Turkish army and then setled in the Balkans.

motan · 9th March 2017, 06:13 PM

Could it be that the blade is original Ottoman, but the kofgari is recently "re-done"? This is very common practice nowdays, epecially in Rhajastan. Another option is that it has been bought new or almost new by a collector and was kept well ever since, like many other pieces in very good condition.
Kubur, nice early photos (1900?). Both are from Syria.

mariusgmioc · 9th March 2017, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Could it be that the blade is original Ottoman, but the kofgari is recently "re-done"?

Of course it could. But in my opinion not very likely.

But it also could be that it has been well cared in a collection. The overall condition of the sword is very good and it definitely isn't unfathomable that a 19th century sword retained all its koftgari.

I also have a couple of 19th century Yataghans retainig almost 100% of their extensive orignal koftgari.

YataganMan · 18th March 2017, 10:12 PM

Yes this Pala is all genuine late 19 cent production ,Hilt plates are Water Buffalo horn well patinated by sweat.I have seen many examples of this kind of hilts
over the years.The koftgari work represents typical Turkish (Anatolian style) and is in very good condition.A good buy congs.

mariusgmioc · 19th March 2017, 12:23 PM

Thanks!

Can you read the cartouche?

Regards,

Marius

6th March 2017, 06:17 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Pala - antique or repro?! I wonder about a Kilij/Pala I aquired not so long ago. What do you think about it?! Is it Turkish? Is it antique? The blade has a perfect cutting build, sharp and nimble with several nicks like it has been used. Yet it is in very good condition and the koftgari is almost perfect. Marius Attached Images

6th March 2017, 06:18 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	more photos Attached Images

9th March 2017, 07:59 AM	#16
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Damascus?? Hi, I am certainly not an expert on any sword, but the style of decoration on the guard and sheath look Syrian to me. Kilij-type swords were made in Damascus well into the 20th century and were popular mainly with Bedu tribesmen. So this could be one of these. I don't know about the blade. It could be re-hafted and re-decorated older blade. The use of cow-horn in the grip is also consistent with late Syrian origin.

9th March 2017, 12:19 PM	#18
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Pictures Just to illustrate my point. The first one is from 1900-1920. Look at the sword below. The second one is from the well-known Aref el Aref series from the 1930'. There are several types visible. The Bedu used every type availble, the most popular were kilij type hilt and calssical Syrian type with jus over 90 degrees bent pommel tip. Shashka type, Arabian saif/nimsha type and locally made "sinai" type were also common. Blades were whatever was available for re-hafting. It is no real evidence, but the kilij type was popular and I guess Damascus sword smiths kept making them. All said, this is not a typical Bedouin sword because the blade and blade decoration are real kilij. Attached Images

9th March 2017, 01:50 PM	#19
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The pala presented by Marius is Turkish, or at least from the Balkans. Your photos are very nice btw. Attached Images

6th March 2017, 06:21 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Marius, Nothing wrong, all good. Excellent catch congrat! I want it!! Best Kubur

6th March 2017, 07:45 PM	#4
grendolino Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 38	The grip is wood what makes me a little suspicious. On the other hand I was always intersted where they had so broad horns from.

6th March 2017, 08:11 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not think you have anything to worry about: 100% genuine.

6th March 2017, 08:54 PM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Call me paranoid, but I suspect this to be brand new made in China.

6th March 2017, 09:56 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yeah... China...:-))) He simply wants you to sell it to him for 2 peanuts. I can give you 4!!! Any higher bidder?:-)))

6th March 2017, 09:56 PM	#11
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	It's perfectly authentic, second half of the 19th century. It's a later than average example and condition is quite good, showing very little wear. That said, the wiggle engraving on the mounts is probably later. It's likely they were plain silver originally. In fact, Ottoman smiths did boil horn to make it flexible. Wooden grips aren't especially common but were certainly known. Six peanuts, Ariel.

6th March 2017, 11:04 PM	#12
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Thank you guys for comments! But now that it is well established that it is made in China, I won't sell it for anything but Yuan. Well... maybe peanuts too... but butter!

7th March 2017, 10:02 AM	#13
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	[QUOTE=That said, the wiggle engraving on the mounts is probably later. It's likely they were plain silver originally. [/QUOTE] I don't think Oliver, the wiggle engravings are the same on scabbard and guard. This sword is perfectly coherent to me.

7th March 2017, 10:21 AM	#14
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	If it is a repro' it's a very good one, more of a "new made in the tradition" rather than a fake. Also more likely Syria or India than China. Myself, without having it in hand I would guess late 19th early 20th century "Ottoman Revival", or a dress sword, a nice piece and well worth having.

9th March 2017, 01:52 PM	#20
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	@ Motan Very interesting indeed! Thank you very much! However, I believe the sheath with the silver thread joining of the leather on the front face of the scabbard is rather typical Turkish. I am surprised to notice they wore their swords edge up. @ Kubur, I agree. I would have said Turkish but in the Balkans the styles were so much intertwined that it would be close to impossible to certainly allocate a precise geographical location. Besides, there were many Turkish smiths who travelled with the Turkish army and then setled in the Balkans.

9th March 2017, 06:13 PM	#21
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Damscus?? Could it be that the blade is original Ottoman, but the kofgari is recently "re-done"? This is very common practice nowdays, epecially in Rhajastan. Another option is that it has been bought new or almost new by a collector and was kept well ever since, like many other pieces in very good condition. Kubur, nice early photos (1900?). Both are from Syria.

18th March 2017, 10:12 PM	#23
YataganMan Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 14	Yes this Pala is all genuine late 19 cent production ,Hilt plates are Water Buffalo horn well patinated by sweat.I have seen many examples of this kind of hilts over the years.The koftgari work represents typical Turkish (Anatolian style) and is in very good condition.A good buy congs.

19th March 2017, 12:23 PM	#24
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Thanks! Can you read the cartouche? Regards, Marius