The half moon symbol in early Spanish swords

[Jim McDougall]

So why OS?
And why is the TO seemingly reversed (if it is to mean Toledo)? on the so called Toledo export mark as shown in Marek.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

So why OS?
And why is the TO seemingly reversed (if it is to mean Toledo)? on the so called Toledo export mark as shown in Marek.

hi Jim,

I do not understand the question, can you explain it please?
Is The question why Alonso Perez used OS ?

best,
Jasper

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

hi Jim,

I do not understand the question, can you explain it please?
Is The question why Alonso Perez used OS ?

best,
Jasper

I guess the answer Jim is looking for is basicaly expressed in my post #15

[Jim McDougall]

Yes Fernando, you did answer me exactly, and we being of the same pharaonic age group and of the same visional subjectivity, you hit exactly what I was trying to ask. Jasper, I thank you very much for your patience and am grateful for your input here as we try to sort out the enigmas of these swords and their markings.

Fernando, it is most interesting about Valle's theorizing about the 'Toledo' mark with its curious letter positioning in the shield, and uses knowledgeable , though tenuous theorizing about what such placements of letters might signify. It would be naïve to discount the number of potential answers there might be, and which may involve unusual explanations.

We must remember that there was nowhere in Europe more involved in religious contrasts, mysticism, magic and occult and military brotherhoods and orders than Spain and Portugal. While there are no records specifying Jewish armourers and swordsmiths, we know they existed of course. The use of Cabbalistic symbolism and sigils which were it seems often used in talismanic contexts along with other symbols and motif.

With illiteracy prevalent, as noted even with many of the famed masters, the use of symbols, sigils and allegorical signs were often key in conveying the imbuement of quality and talismanic virtue in blades.
With the many forms of codification and secret symbols held so profoundly by Spaniards and Portuguese in so many instances, it would be extremely difficult to define any meanings in these punzones and markings accurately.

Even the Spanish system of swordsmanship, destreza , was an occult and scientific mystery, with complex numerical and geometric features. Is it possible aspects of this, along with the many other types of symbolism, may carry the mysteries even further?

As noted, the letter 'S' seems well represented in at least 7 examples, with 4 of them being Sahagun. The placement of a dot or a line may explain which specific maker the punzon might represent, but others are simply the letter S. Perhaps subtle differences in the crown may be the key?

The idea of the placement of the letters as signifying the initial of the maker, his place of origin also seems questionable. I recall one writer once suggested the repeated use of the letter 'P' in a number of punzones possibly because so many makers were named Pedro! Another conundrum is with the number '3', which occurs in a number of them. I have seen no adequate explanation for this one.

While these dilemmas seem almost impossible to resolve, with lack of accurate records, the purloining and spurious use of marks in Spain as well of course in the busy centers of Germany and Italy.....we have come a long way here thanks to you guys and the great insight and information you share.

[cornelistromp]

as known, some German blacksmiths from solingen used hispanicized marks.
For example, Clemens Stamm used the toldedo mark and an IS crowned together with the crescent. see nr 45,107 There is even a rapier described with a Spanish inscription
CLEMENS.STAM.ESPADERO.DEI.REY. ( A. Weyersberg solinger schwertschmeide p.44)
Clemens Tesche used crowned S, Peter Tesche a crowned B and Toledo mark, the crowned OT. etc. see nr111,112
It seems that for geographical determination, a mark in itself has subordinate value and should always be considered in conjunction with the inscribed name of the blacksmith.

best,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

as known, some German blacksmiths from solingen used hispanicized marks... It seems that for geographical determination, a mark in itself has subordinate value and should always be considered in conjunction with the inscribed name of the blacksmith...

Absolutely, Jasper.
Actually the inverted stiuation, as you know, is also not reliable. Often we see blade smiths name inscriptions, some times even 'supported' by the To symbol, that are a fake; Ayala, Sahagun and other.


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[Jim McDougall]

Perfect Fernando!!! I knew you would have a reference on Jewish smiths , which seems to have escaped the English language references I had used. I think they must have assumed that these artisans must have not been noted as such as so much of the motif, markings and inscriptions which were covertly encoded with Cabbalistic devices and numerology, that their identities must have been equally encrypted.
As always, I thank you for the elucidation.

There we have the Z and S syndrome again! and I forgot to look for the Zs.
I knew that Zaragoza was also spelled Saragossa, but was unclear on the grammar determination of which was proper in which geographic or linguistic setting. This was indeed a key alternate center which seems to have been an alternate location for many of the masters.

The number 3 seems to appear in a number of the punzones, but indeed, the character may be a letter in the calligraphy of Spanish dialects or geographic and period references. Again, I hope you might set this straight.
Curiously, the numeric three in various symbolic application is believed to represent the Holy Trinity in Christianity as well as the Holy Three in other religions symbolism. I have even seen the number '3' standing alone on some western blades.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... While there are no records specifying Jewish armourers and swordsmiths, we know they existed of course...

From the work A ARMARIA EM PORTUGAL by Sousa Viterbo 1907/8:

... Besides Moors, Jews were also experts in metalic arts in general and in the production of weapons in particular, reason why an exception was promulgated in their favour. According to Damião de Gois, in part I, chapter X, of his Chronicle of (King) Dom Manuel, the Jews of Castille, who came to Portugal in the time of (King) Dom João II, paid 8 cruzados per capita and the black smiths, tinkers, mail smiths and armourers (only) paid half. The influence of these imigrants could obviously not be long lasting, as they had to be expatriated in the realm of Dom Manuel. However many Jews, converted to Catholicism, continued exercizing their activities, so that we see in (city of) Tavira, Algarve, a family of New Christians (converted Jews), that of the Fains, dedicated to the production of lances.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...As noted, the letter 'S' seems well represented in at least 7 examples, with 4 of them being Sahagun...

Actually in over a dozen examples, with more or less appendixes. Could we have here the toponimic phenomina, that is, their origin being, for example, Zaragossa, a place well known for its sword smiths which, in Catalonian, a neighbour of Aragon and once its ally, is spelt Saragossa ? I am trying to get some clarification on this issue from Germán Dueñas Berains, but i don't think he has the time to pay attention to my new email.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...Another conundrum is with the number '3', which occurs in a number of them. I have seen no adequate explanation for this one...

And ... is that a (number) 3, Jim ?


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