A Spanish rapier Early 17TH century

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2017, 11:20 PM

Thank you as well Fernando, for your also very generous reply.
Please understand, I did not mean to imply that my thoughts on the half moon mark being a Castilian statute or mark of such benefit was in any way unassailable. In fact, I would not ever consider any of my theories or matters being observed as such, as it would be contrary to my place as a student of arms, certainly not an expert.

What I meant is that I consider the data from Mr. Beraiz, as well as most of the work of Palomares in review as being valuable and highly considered, however that there may always be other aspects or conditions which might have put certain significance to the moons, not yet discovered or known.

While your explanations regarding the espadero del rey signature as most reliably described by Mr. Beraiz seem of course quite definitive, the conundrum of the moons to me remains very much inconclusive.
Actually I am with you in hoping for more definitive evidence of what significance or symbolism these half moons might have held; who used them; and why. The fact that some well versed and highly respected authorities, such as Sir James Mann (1962, Wallace Coll.) accepted the idea of links to the Espaderos del Rey lead me to believe that such a thought had some reliable source.
It is clear that even the most highly regarded authorities are not without certain information which may be incorrect or improperly assumed, but it is typically a singular or unusually rare case. That circumstance does seem to diminish proportionally with those who in specialized fields and in their own national context, such as Mr. Beraiz, so I recognize his comments accordingly as most reliable.

Thank you as always for such well placed and supported discussion.

All the best
Jim

fernando · 27th February 2017, 02:52 PM

Well Jim, considering this wasn't yet the chekmate on this issue, and asking Jean-Luc for tolerance over hijacking his thread, i would like to introduce the earliest author known to have registered Spanish silver smiths, mostly those working in Toledo, with the great difference that this one was contemporary to the old Masters, as he resourced around the 1600's. Jehan Lhermite was a Flemish Gentilhomme who served Spanish Kings Filipe II and III, having been assigned to their chambers. In his written work called "Le Passetemps", he gives account of places and events he has been through when traveling with the Royalty, and includes a report on sword smiths registered in Toledo (and not only) with a comprehensive description on how they used to shape their blades, like ricasso profile and their average length, something Palomares didn't cover, as well as the marks they used, these maybe not exempted from one or two eventual flaws, even considering he registered them in the period. Interesting to check that he registered (only) one Master who used the Espadero del Rey signature (Sebastian Hernandez), and makes only one mention to the half moon symbol, "forming a rostrillo inside it", as once adopted by (guess who) Juan Martinez.
It took me a couple hours to format this chart in order to make it "uploadable". I hope it is worth ... and not boring.

.

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2017, 05:51 PM

I would very much like to thank Jean Luc for his forbearance in this continued digression in his thread, as well Fernando for his patience in responding to my inquisitiveness concerning the 'Espadero del Rey' dilemma. While it indeed is a digression topically, this matter on these swordsmiths is indirectly pertinent as related to my suggestion that the nearly indistinguishable mark at the forte on his example might be a degraded 'half moon' which may have been placed along with the rather rugged inscription in the blade.

Fernando, the entry you have placed here is exactly the kind of material I as hoping for, especially as this account was contemporary to the working times of the old swordsmiths. As noted, the problems with Palomares accounts are inherently a result of his having documented most of his material during a time (1772) when nearly all of these makers had long been gone and Toledo's sword making industry had long been in ruin.

This resource is most valuable, and I very much appreciate the time and effort you spent in providing it here, so I thank you sincerely. Even in Spanish, the clearly illustrated marks and accompanying text should be manageable in examining this very important data, which, like all of your entries, are never, ever boring!

Thank you again!

Best regards
Jim

27th February 2017, 02:52 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Well Jim, considering this wasn't yet the chekmate on this issue, and asking Jean-Luc for tolerance over hijacking his thread, i would like to introduce the earliest author known to have registered Spanish silver smiths, mostly those working in Toledo, with the great difference that this one was contemporary to the old Masters, as he resourced around the 1600's. Jehan Lhermite was a Flemish Gentilhomme who served Spanish Kings Filipe II and III, having been assigned to their chambers. In his written work called "Le Passetemps", he gives account of places and events he has been through when traveling with the Royalty, and includes a report on sword smiths registered in Toledo (and not only) with a comprehensive description on how they used to shape their blades, like ricasso profile and their average length, something Palomares didn't cover, as well as the marks they used, these maybe not exempted from one or two eventual flaws, even considering he registered them in the period. Interesting to check that he registered (only) one Master who used the Espadero del Rey signature (Sebastian Hernandez), and makes only one mention to the half moon symbol, "forming a rostrillo inside it", as once adopted by (guess who) Juan Martinez. It took me a couple hours to format this chart in order to make it "uploadable". I hope it is worth ... and not boring. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 1st March 2017 at 11:41 AM.

25th February 2017, 11:20 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you as well Fernando, for your also very generous reply. Please understand, I did not mean to imply that my thoughts on the half moon mark being a Castilian statute or mark of such benefit was in any way unassailable. In fact, I would not ever consider any of my theories or matters being observed as such, as it would be contrary to my place as a student of arms, certainly not an expert. What I meant is that I consider the data from Mr. Beraiz, as well as most of the work of Palomares in review as being valuable and highly considered, however that there may always be other aspects or conditions which might have put certain significance to the moons, not yet discovered or known. While your explanations regarding the espadero del rey signature as most reliably described by Mr. Beraiz seem of course quite definitive, the conundrum of the moons to me remains very much inconclusive. Actually I am with you in hoping for more definitive evidence of what significance or symbolism these half moons might have held; who used them; and why. The fact that some well versed and highly respected authorities, such as Sir James Mann (1962, Wallace Coll.) accepted the idea of links to the Espaderos del Rey lead me to believe that such a thought had some reliable source. It is clear that even the most highly regarded authorities are not without certain information which may be incorrect or improperly assumed, but it is typically a singular or unusually rare case. That circumstance does seem to diminish proportionally with those who in specialized fields and in their own national context, such as Mr. Beraiz, so I recognize his comments accordingly as most reliable. Thank you as always for such well placed and supported discussion. All the best Jim

27th February 2017, 05:51 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I would very much like to thank Jean Luc for his forbearance in this continued digression in his thread, as well Fernando for his patience in responding to my inquisitiveness concerning the 'Espadero del Rey' dilemma. While it indeed is a digression topically, this matter on these swordsmiths is indirectly pertinent as related to my suggestion that the nearly indistinguishable mark at the forte on his example might be a degraded 'half moon' which may have been placed along with the rather rugged inscription in the blade. Fernando, the entry you have placed here is exactly the kind of material I as hoping for, especially as this account was contemporary to the working times of the old swordsmiths. As noted, the problems with Palomares accounts are inherently a result of his having documented most of his material during a time (1772) when nearly all of these makers had long been gone and Toledo's sword making industry had long been in ruin. This resource is most valuable, and I very much appreciate the time and effort you spent in providing it here, so I thank you sincerely. Even in Spanish, the clearly illustrated marks and accompanying text should be manageable in examining this very important data, which, like all of your entries, are never, ever boring! Thank you again! Best regards Jim