Interesting implement

Berkley · 25th February 2017, 04:31 AM

I’ll suggest an alternative hypothesis, taking into account some clues related to the original Met exhibit.
The provenance shows the “implement” was obtained some 35 years ago from a named individual. Google search indicates that the named individual is possibly Iranian, and was the president of an oriental carpet company at about the time of the Met’s acquisition.
Although we are all programmed to see such an implement as a weapon, we have agreed that its design is very unsuitable for that purpose. Given its provenance, is it unreasonable to think of it as an elegant tool for use in trimming or shaping sumptuous knotted rugs?
Take another look at what seems to me to be a much more comfortable and useful approach to using the “implement”:

Miguel · 25th February 2017, 03:51 PM

Most interesting hypothesise which I would go along with as it ticks the boxes. The peacock was also a symbol in Persia. Well done Holmes.
Miguel

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2017, 04:16 PM

I agree with Miguel.
Berkeley, a most compelling theory, and nice research to bring in the Persian rug making angle! I would never have thought of this as such an implement, but this makes perfect sense.

ariel · 25th February 2017, 04:56 PM

For that, the inner edges of the forked blade should have been razor-sharp. On the object they look dull and horribly uneven.
And didn't Iranian carpet makers have just scissors?

I am glad that Jum agrees with me about its age.

We all have "walls of shame" in our collections. Why would Met be an exception?

Iranian carpet traders can spin provenance stories more fabulous than Chinese E-Bayers:-)

My hypothesis is more pedestrian, but the Occam Razor still cuts quite well.

mariusgmioc · 25th February 2017, 07:30 PM

[QUOTE=Berkley]I’ll suggest an alternative hypothesis, taking into account some clues related to the original Met exhibit.
Given its provenance, is it unreasonable to think of it as an elegant tool for use in trimming or shaping sumptuous knotted rugs?
Take another look at what seems to me to be a much more comfortable and useful approach to using the “implement”:

Interesting hypothesis, but I have visited a few carpet workshops that use ancient tools and technique and didn't see anything like this.

Besides, you can google "tools used in carpet making" and won't get anything that looks alike.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2017, 10:57 PM

Well it sounded like a plausible idea, and I am always open to any thoughts especially when reasonably deduced and supporting factors presented.
On the other hand, looking at what might have been the purpose, and noting no sharpened edges etc. the thinking moves back to votive item as originally proposed seems better.

I do very much like these kinds of exchanges where everyone presents ideas and views without friction and keeping open minds. This way we can all evaluate evidence and ideas to form opinions.

Berkley · 26th February 2017, 04:47 AM

Jim, thanks for your steady hand on the tiller.
I am reminded of an old saying I learned in the Caribbean: "Some days chicken, some days feathers."

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2017, 07:09 PM

Thank you so much Berkley! and I very much like the analogy 'steady hand on the tiller'!
As we navigate the treacherous waters of extremely murky arms and armour investigation, classification and history, there are most definitely challenges.
I think it is always responsible and prudent to change course as required with regard to perspective and theories and as more supporting material becomes available.
We all learn a heck of a lot here as we bounce these things around!!!

ariel · 5th April 2017, 07:41 PM

Here is another one from Rajastan, ended on e-bay. The seller was kind enough to label it as " wall decorative"

5th April 2017, 07:41 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is another one from Rajastan, ended on e-bay. The seller was kind enough to label it as " wall decorative" Attached Images

25th February 2017, 04:31 AM	#1
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	I’ll suggest an alternative hypothesis, taking into account some clues related to the original Met exhibit. The provenance shows the “implement” was obtained some 35 years ago from a named individual. Google search indicates that the named individual is possibly Iranian, and was the president of an oriental carpet company at about the time of the Met’s acquisition. Although we are all programmed to see such an implement as a weapon, we have agreed that its design is very unsuitable for that purpose. Given its provenance, is it unreasonable to think of it as an elegant tool for use in trimming or shaping sumptuous knotted rugs? Take another look at what seems to me to be a much more comfortable and useful approach to using the “implement”:

25th February 2017, 03:51 PM	#2
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Most interesting hypothesise which I would go along with as it ticks the boxes. The peacock was also a symbol in Persia. Well done Holmes. Miguel

25th February 2017, 04:16 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	I agree with Miguel. Berkeley, a most compelling theory, and nice research to bring in the Persian rug making angle! I would never have thought of this as such an implement, but this makes perfect sense.

25th February 2017, 04:56 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	For that, the inner edges of the forked blade should have been razor-sharp. On the object they look dull and horribly uneven. And didn't Iranian carpet makers have just scissors? I am glad that Jum agrees with me about its age. We all have "walls of shame" in our collections. Why would Met be an exception? Iranian carpet traders can spin provenance stories more fabulous than Chinese E-Bayers:-) My hypothesis is more pedestrian, but the Occam Razor still cuts quite well.

25th February 2017, 07:30 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	[QUOTE=Berkley]I’ll suggest an alternative hypothesis, taking into account some clues related to the original Met exhibit. Given its provenance, is it unreasonable to think of it as an elegant tool for use in trimming or shaping sumptuous knotted rugs? Take another look at what seems to me to be a much more comfortable and useful approach to using the “implement”: Interesting hypothesis, but I have visited a few carpet workshops that use ancient tools and technique and didn't see anything like this. Besides, you can google "tools used in carpet making" and won't get anything that looks alike.

25th February 2017, 10:57 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	Well it sounded like a plausible idea, and I am always open to any thoughts especially when reasonably deduced and supporting factors presented. On the other hand, looking at what might have been the purpose, and noting no sharpened edges etc. the thinking moves back to votive item as originally proposed seems better. I do very much like these kinds of exchanges where everyone presents ideas and views without friction and keeping open minds. This way we can all evaluate evidence and ideas to form opinions.

26th February 2017, 04:47 AM	#7
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Jim, thanks for your steady hand on the tiller. I am reminded of an old saying I learned in the Caribbean: "Some days chicken, some days feathers."

27th February 2017, 07:09 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	Thank you so much Berkley! and I very much like the analogy 'steady hand on the tiller'! As we navigate the treacherous waters of extremely murky arms and armour investigation, classification and history, there are most definitely challenges. I think it is always responsible and prudent to change course as required with regard to perspective and theories and as more supporting material becomes available. We all learn a heck of a lot here as we bounce these things around!!!