A beautiful Burmese dha dated 1798

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ian

I am confident that the first example in my last post here is not from the 1970s. Its condition and the amount of oxidation on the silver compare to provenanced examples of Shan knives from the 19th C.--those very familiar knives with silver hilts and scabbards. Just as you must have, I've handled scores of these over the years and older examples show similar wear and oxidation to the Lao example I show above.

Hi Ian,

A point worth noting about the oxidisation from my experience is that degrees of colour and patina is based on impurities in the silvers used.
I've found it in both 18th and 20th century silver, some with native hallmarks.
I am sure it is not limited to, but the higher quality silvers have patinated to blues and purples, whilst others from both ends of the age window have been blackish, brown copperish and even hints of gold in places where some form of flux has been used.
With regards to the hallmarks, I'd guess it is like any other known form of noting that tax has been paid on the silver sheets used. Again, I am sure it is not limited to, but those of an appearance you wouldn't consider silver until polished, I'd expect them at face value to be from more provincial areas where regulations and taxes were less exacting.

Originally Posted by Ian

But back to our two theories. If I'm stating you correctly, you believe that the Burmese developed the distinctive repoussed, segmented style of scabbard as a highly decorative and prestigious form, almost entirely for distinguished individuals and presentation pieces. You would date this development to the appearance of the British in Burma, and specifically around the mid-19th C. Therefore, the appearance of these features on Lao/northern Thai swords would have been in imitation of the Burmese style.

Not quite; I do not believe The Lao/Thai swords are an imitation of at all. If anything, and only as a matter of thought, not fact, that the Burmese "Story" Dah developed in its own right from inspiration of the repousse silver hilts swords of Thai/Lao swords. I am sceptical about the sectional repousse scabbards of Laos being any older that the 1950-70s. Has anyone an image of these reputed royal Laos swords from which Thit Thong Ratanakorn copied his swords from?

Originally Posted by Ian

My competing idea is that this style evolved from an earlier Lan Chang (i.e. Lao) style following the collapse of the Lan Chang era in the early 18th C. This would place it primarily as a Lao style, with perhaps later diffusion to Burma. [There are, of course, other explanations such as independent parallel development of the two, which seems unlikely, or that both developed from a (presently unknown) prior style.]

In support of your view, you point to the large number of Thai/Lao swords you have seen and handled (and there are many on your site), and how rare it is to see segmented scabbards on these. That's a powerful argument, but not exactly a systematic attempt to answer the question of whether these segmented forms developed from an earlier Lan Chang style. Indeed, to disprove your Burmese origin theory it would only be necessary to find one or two Lao/Thai examples that predate the mid-19th C.

I have provided pictures of what I think is a 19th C. Lao example. You question that dating. Fair enough.

As with so many competing theories in our field, we need to have clearly provenanced pieces. These are likely to be found in museums of far away places which I seldom get to these days. Or they might be located in some of the former colonial countries. Or they may reside in the hands of some of our readers who will post them here.

Let's see if anything shows up.

Ian.

Gavin

[Ian]

Hi Gavin:

Thanks again for your thoughts and experience with these swords. Very helpful.

In pursuing my research further, I looked at another online source of some size, namely Artzi Yarom's archives on his Oriental Arms web site. Artzi presently lists some 600 swords he has sold in his Indo-China/China/Tibet grouping. Within his swords I found three (one Burmese, two Thai/Lao) that are of the segmented scabbard type we are describing here and which were not simply plain silver panels on the scabbard (another two Thai/Lao examples had the plain silver panels).

Attached I have copied the pictures from Artzi's site. I did not count the total number of dha/daab on his site, but a fair estimate might be that one in four or one in five of the items (i.e., 120-150) shown were dha/daab; of these about two-thirds had scabbards. An estimate of the sample size from which these segmented scabbard swords was drawn is thus roughly a hundred in total. That gives us an overall prevalence for segmented scabbards of around 3% based on Artzi's collected experience over the last however many years he has been maintaining his site (about 15-20 years I think). I would call that rate of 3% "uncommon" but not "rare."

When looking at the examples he has on record, I found the two Thai/Lao swords with segmented scabbards appeared to have some age. One has no lotus bud pommel, and the other has a larger, more flamboyant type similar to what is seen on some of the Burmese presentation dha that you referenced. The third example, a Burmese "Story Dha," has a lotus pommel also, which is not particularly large.

The final example from Artzi's site is one of the Thai/Lao swords with an undecorated segmented scabbard. Here the equal lengths of panels is apparent, but there is no engraving or repoussed work on the silver. This might reflect an earlier form of the style, but I have no evidence to support that view.

Would appreciate your thoughts.

Ian.

----------------Attachments-----------------

Thai/Lao daab with segmented scabbard.

Thai/Lao daab with segmented scabbard. Hilt has a large lotus bud pommel.

Burmese "story dha" with segmented scabbard. Hilt has a lotus pommel.

.

[Ian]

Here is the Thai/Lao example with a segmented scabbard but without decoration on the silver panels. The style of this one reminds me of the Thai/Lao daab I posted above with the repoussed panels.

---------------Attachment----------------

Thai/Lao daab with segmented silver scabbard with undecorated panels.

.

[Gavin Nugent]

I love Pandora's box Ian, everything goes right out the window in such a mish mash region :-)

About the swords you presented.

#1, I am honestly, not entirely convinced that is an original marriage of blade and scabbard, something to discuss as we go if the sword surfaces and better images and information is available.

#2, I see this as Shan Burma work, exactly what museums have noted with shallow repousse work.

#3, I see this as Shan Burma silver craft as well.

#4, I cannot from the images so one way or the other but I see that this could also be Shan Burma

A question that comes to mind, and it comes to mind because of the generic term used, What constitutes a "Story" Dah?
Must it jut be the blade telling the story or much the scabbard also tell a story in repousse? Must the story, if a blade only is to be considered, must it tell of the tale/s of Jataka or simply be decoration of birds, elephants and chinthe?
Using this link for example, there are Burmese swords, do both classify as "Story" Dah, one fullly decorated blade, one partial? Note the more common sectional scabbard there too.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...23&postcount=5

I've added a random sectional scabbard image below on a sword I'd call Northern Thai in to Laos.

Many of my sold swords, I can say with conviction, my opinions have changed over time as information comes to hand...say s990 for example. Once I thought this to be Thai for many reasons, now I consider it Shan Burma based on the Vittorio Emanuele sword and those swords in the 1903 Delhi Durbar images. Some others, I'd add more specific data given the chance.

Lets look to Mark's site,there is a good amount of Dah and Daab to choose from with sectional scabbard and decorated blades. I have only chosen sword length inventory.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0011.htm
This is the exact type of demise in the craft that I previously mentioned and the larger pairs I know were purchased in 1954 in Kachin Burma.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0051.htm
Another of the Burma plain sectional type. "Story" blade.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0065.htm
Another Burma, I've quite a few of these in my sold listing, with many different decorations to the blades, hence my question above, what makes a story Dha?

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0062.htm
An interesting sword, I'd call the blade Laos through to Tonkin border regions but the dress Shan. Its in the same basket I placed sold stock s990.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0064.htm
Shan sectional silver dress...these sword types have the thinest finest silver sheet, hardly comparable to the type initially presented here which are thick, heavy and robust sections. Which leads me to a point of note, about from Iains sectional example and the scabbard of the one I question from Artzi's site, I personally would say that most others mentioned of plain sectional type found on the Thai/Lao sword types would crush and crumple under hand if not supported by the timber core.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0070.htm
As per inventory 0064 above. You can see how easily the silver breaks and creases.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0069.htm
I note Mark's question mark, and I can see the confusion...Laos Shan gets my vote, but even then its rocky....I think it could be a marriage.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm
The sword in the initial thread post, one we should get back to in the discussion :-)

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0075.htm
Its a real nice Burman Dah, but coming back to my question, what makes a "story" dah a Story Dah...this is only decoration...

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0008.htm
Another Burman blade decorated with animals...does it quality...

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0013.htm
Another nice Shan Dah with fill silver sectional scabbard.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0015.htm
No much to say other than there is sections and its Burma???

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0036.htm
Low repousse sectional Burmese Dah of nice form.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0045.htm
As a note, this is the typical Thai Laos silver scabbard form, single sheet with seperate end...I provide a sectional example in the image below, a rare aspect.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0050.htm
Another showing the typical scabbard design I note about, nice to see the hilt apart, showing the robust sections of the hilt.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0052.htm
Another nice all sectional silver Shan Dah.

Gavin

[Ian]

Gavin:

Yes, things do indeed get complicated in this area. The Shan are a very interesting group, being ethnically Tai, and are included in the same ethnographic group as the Lao (who are also Tai/Dai). The broad group of Tai in southern Yunnan, northern Thailand, Laos and eastern Burma (Shan States) comprise the major concentration of these peoples in SE Asia. The Tai and Chinese are cognate races, quite distinct from the Burmans and Kachins who are Tibeto-Burman in origin.

That we see so much intermingling of styles in northern Thailand, Laos, southern Yunnan and the neighboring Shan States is not surprising. I would say that the Shan culture, in general, is more Sinocized than the Lao, and this follows through somewhat in the styles we see on their weapons and scabbards.

While there is some overlap between the scabbards of the Shan and Lao, I see some important differences too. The Shan style uses far more metal (usually silver) wire in its execution, with rosettes and scalloped designs being quite prominent. The Lao style features more repoussed metal work on its scabbards. These different techniques are important, I think, in distinguishing the two styles. I would be the first to agree that occasional examples of "mixed" styles do exist, but given the close geographical proximity of the two groups in northern Thailand/Laos, and their common ethnographic links, that is probably not surprising.

When I went through your old pictures and Artzi's site I was careful to pick out the obvious Shan examples and did not include them.

As to what constitutes a "story dha," I don't think we need to be overly complicated. For me, the "story dha" is related solely to the blade (although that may be complemented by an accompanying scabbard that has related graphics). The blade should contain full-length metal inlaid decorations, using a "koftgari" technique, that comprise graphical elements and accompanying Burmese text relating an historical, mythical, or spiritual "story." Both sides of the blade should be treated in this manner.

This definition would exclude, for example, those sword blades with purely vegetal or animal representations, even though these may be done in the same manner as the "story dhas." Also excluded would be those blades with less than full length inscriptions, of which there are examples with a brief piece of Burmese text and a few vegetal designs.

Returning to the subject of this thread, and its relationship to what we have been discussing. I would definitely classify the sword as a "story dha." The hilt is unusual, with a face on the pommel. When we look at other "story dha," however, we see a lotus bud pommel, in various forms, some of which resemble the large flamboyant forms seen on Shan dha, and others the smaller lotus bud style on northern Thai/Lao swords.

Let me make a suggestion. The Burmese "story dha" is actually a production of the Shan craftsmen in eastern Burma, drawing on indigenous Shan and Tai/Lao traditional silver work, with the lotus bud pommel and segmented scabbard being features of those areas, along with repoussed silver work on the scabbards.

There is a precedent for the production of prestigious swords by the Shan for other ethnic groups in Burma. The last example you cite from Mark's site is a silver dha in the Shan style but which Mark labeled as Kachin. That designation was made because there are several published photographs of prominent Kachin leaders bearing just this type of sword in processions and other Kachin ceremonies (see attachment). Does that make it Kachin or is it always Shan?

As you say, this area is a Pandora's box, with so much intermingling that it is hard to know what comes from where.

Ian.

--------------Attachment----------------

Kachin formal political meeting with traditional parading with dha. The Jingphaw Times, January 19, 1951.

.

[Miguel]

A really interesting thread most illuminating. I have a story dha but it was just stuck in a shed for years by a previous owner and suffered quite a bit of corrosion. The scabbard and hilt are of wood covered with silvered brass. It appears to be one of those made when the skills had declined.
Miguel

[Ian]

Hi Miguel:

Yes, that sword is one of the more recently made ones, although I have seen worse examples.

When I was starting to collect (many years ago) I was given a Burmese "story dha" that was probably made around 1950. I still have it somewhere. It is covered in yellow brass that was once cleaned by a previous owner with Brasso, a commercial polish that is renowned for leaving a heavy, white powdery residue. Fortunately, the sword itself was of very low quality so the residue did not detract from it.

I have one of the poor quality Lao swords with segmented scabbard also. That came as an add in with another sword that I wanted. It has a terrible blade made from sheet metal, and the hilt and scabbard are also made from a silvery base metal.

One day I will give these to someone I really don't like very much! In the meanwhile they sit in storage. Perhaps I will get them out and post them here to show what not to acquire.

Ian.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ian

Let me make a suggestion. The Burmese "story dha" is actually a production of the Shan craftsmen in eastern Burma, drawing on indigenous Shan and Tai/Lao traditional silver work, with the lotus bud pommel and segmented scabbard being features of those areas, along with repoussed silver work on the scabbards.

From what understand there is some truth to this statement in some respects, the truth of the matter though, is that it is Burmese silverware, made in Burma.

To better contextualise the Burmese craft of the period that these repousse Burmese swords were made, and including reference to known Shan import silverware with influences from as far away as Thailand in Burmese work, I refer to Joseph Cohen's dialogue on Tilley's publication.

http://www.josephcohenantiques.com/s...-silversmiths/
http://www.josephcohenantiques.com/s...iption-plates/
http://www.josephcohenantiques.com/s...ptions-plates/

I think this is a very fine representation of the Shan style silverwork;
http://www.josephcohenantiques.com/c...urmese-beaker/

Originally Posted by Ian

There is a precedent for the production of prestigious swords by the Shan for other ethnic groups in Burma. The last example you cite from Mark's site is a silver dha in the Shan style but which Mark labeled as Kachin. That designation was made because there are several published photographs of prominent Kachin leaders bearing just this type of sword in processions and other Kachin ceremonies (see attachment). Does that make it Kachin or is it always Shan?

The BIG spanner to throw in to the mix here is that Yunnan sword smiths have also been making this sword type for a very long time and well in to the 20th century including the making of other countries knives too, from what direction did the sword in the newspaper come from...a study for another day.

Regarding what constitutes a story Dah, I agree totally...it then just runs from presentation grade to market grade.

[Ian]

Originally posted by Gavin Nugent:

From what understand there is some truth to this statement in some respects, the truth of the matter though, is that it is Burmese silverware, made in Burma.

Gavin:

I guess it comes down to whether one wishes to speak geographically or ethnographically. I think we would both agree that these "story dha" are not Kachin or Karen in origin, and probably not Burman; however, each of these ethnic groups is "Burmese" as defined by the boundaries of Myanmar and former Burma under British rule. [I won't get into the broken promises of homelands for minority populations in this country that would have given the Shan, Kachin, and Karen their independence 60 years ago.]

My preference is to define these dha in terms of the ethnic group(s) from which they come, regardless of geography. In this case, I think we can agree that "story dha" are most likely a product of the greater group of Tai, and more specifically the southern Tai* (which includes Shan, Thai, Lao, and other less common groups). This larger group has sub-styles in swords, in part depending on the degree of Chinese influence, and bridges the national geographic boundaries of Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, northern Vietnam and southern China.

However, by removing the geographic constraints that apply to national borders and the use of associated terms (Burmese, Thai, Lao, Chinese, etc.), I think we can get a better picture of cultural items such as dha/daab/dao and arrive at a clearer understanding of the diffusion of their styles among the various ethnic groups in the region. In this way, I think the picture becomes less of a melting pot and starts to make more sense.

I do think our traditional collecting world has been rather lazy in continuing much of the earlier colonial approach for attributing cultural artifacts by geographic identity rather than ethnographic group. "Burmese" is an archaic term, just as "Siamese" or "Vietnamese." At best, these terms are a starting point in the discussion of the origin of cultural items such as dha/daab/dao in the region.

Ian.

* I use the term southern Tai to distinguish them from their northern brethren. The northern Tai (Shan) arrived in their present region a few centuries before their southern cousins, and at one time occupied and controlled what is now northern Burma and Assam (the latter deriving its name from "Shan"), extending into Tibet. The southern group of Tai was driven south by Kublai Khan in the 13th C. and came to occupy much of what is now southern Burma, Thailand, Laos, and southern Yunnan, China.