A beautiful Burmese dha dated 1798

Ian · 22nd February 2017, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gavin Nugent:

Hi Ian,

Segmented scabbards are very common on many types of Burmese Dah in plain and repousse styling and far less common on Laos and Thai swords which for 90+% are plain silver sheet with embellished ends...the other 10% or less that are of segmented scabbards are rarely seen and usually not repousse.

Hilts are a different story, for centuries, as you note, this aspect has been present on Thai and Laos swords...why did it not follow through to the scabbard in these countries in these times? On Royal swords it did, but not to my knowledge segmented types of scabbards but certainly repousse.
All others were suspended by baldrics could be one answer as why they weren't repousse scabbard as Royal swords had sword bearers. These Burmese swords are hung by suspension loops in a very European manner, not baldric or sash worn and can display such work.

If I understand correctly the swords you refer to, are mostly royal swords and none to my knowledge are interlocked in the manner of these "story" dah except the 1970s zodiac examples which are reputed to be based on swords held by the royal house...swords I've never seen.

Who genetically worked in these Burmese guilds I cannot say, but as a Burmese production under the British Raj and later Independent Burmese government, we are talking 150+ years here of craft here I see the people as Burmese and English. During the period of the manufacture of these prestigious swords and other fine export silver, there were clear lines/borders defined between the colonial powers of Britain and France...

Gavin

Hi Gavin:

Hmmm. Perhaps we are talking about slightly different things.

In any case, I am posting here two swords that I think show the segmented Lao scabbards. The first also has a segmented hilt.

The first one I posted here about eight months ago when I picked it up online. Having cleaned the hilt and scabbard, the silver work has come up rather well to show some nice repousse work and an unadorned segment on the scabbard where the rope baldric would have been attached. In fact, there are still very faint impressions of the rope that once wound around it. Judging from the condition of the silver work, its style, and quality (good but not great) I would think it is from the 19th C. Incidentally, the blade that came with these fittings was a late 20th C. replacement and a piece of junk!

The second is a late 20th C. sword made by a Lao craftsman whose name I knew once but now cannot find in my records. There are at least three or four of these swords that he has made, maybe more. I purchased this one in the 1990s. The silver covered scabbard has a series of segments in which a different animal is depicted. The ivory hilt on this one is not segmented, but I like the "naked" ivory tusk and silver work. (Incidentally, Scott Rodell has a fine Cochin saber with a similar hilt that appears on his web site. I had the pleasure of handling this sword a few years ago at Timonium and it was beautifully balanced.)

I have another two or three examples similar to the first one, so I don't think that these segmented scabbards are necessarily "rare" on Lao swords, however I do believe they are a distinct style that the Lao developed.

When it comes to Burmese scabbards, I think we are probably talking about different things. To get a handle on your impressions, I went to your web site and looked through all your old pics. I found four Burmese dha with what I would call segmented scabbard decorations--these were all high end, presentation type swords. I excluded Shan and Yunnan decorated dha that might give the appearance of segmented patterns along the scabbard, but which have cut out areas where the wood shows through--clearly a different style from the Lao segmented scabbards.

The numbers of Thai and Lao daab on your site were too numerous to count, but a quick inspection showed few, if any, with the segmented patterns that I show below. A substantial fraction had no scabbard.

It seems that the segmented pattern of which I am talking is not common, on either Burmese or Thai/Lao swords. I know there are others here who collect dha/daab and perhaps they could share some of their examples.

Ian.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd February 2017, 06:30 AM

Hi Ian,

The 1970's craftsman name that eludes you is Thit Thong Ratanakorn.
I personally feel that the sword you suspect is 19th century silver dress is more likely of the period of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn sword.

Of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn swords, I must have seen 30+ of the type now...I've even seen them in sets of three with sizes relating to the Katana, Waka and Tanto...all the same style with ivory hilts.

The segmented scabbard types are certainly uncommon as a whole, but also rather common when they all start getting documented. You did well to pick through my unorganised sold stock link...you'll see another 3 fine examples in my latest swap forum post, a fellow collector that I've been put in touch with also has two similar, here is another rare short example from these pages; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...06&postcount=1
There is the Vittorio Emanuele the 2nd gem encrusted Burmese dah with segmented scabbard, non repousse but gem encrusted at the joins, a sword akin to those pictured in the hands of the body guards of Shan Princes in this article here; http://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/research-d...na-and-the-tai
Other Burmese types have passed through my hands and numerous others seen online over the years..
Comparatively, I know of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn which are often flogged off as 19th century are auctions and dealers...so I guess, when you include this Laos revival of the 70's, it is more a 50/50 spread and not all that uncommon on either side of the border.
There is a non repousse silver three segment scabbard in a well know Thai Silverware book.

I personally feel that these Laos swords were inspired by the Burmese repousse dah of the Raj and later independent Burma.

Gavin

Ian · 22nd February 2017, 04:18 PM

Hi Gavin:

Well, I guess we have two different theories about this style.

I am confident that the first example in my last post here is not from the 1970s. Its condition and the amount of oxidation on the silver compare to provenanced examples of Shan knives from the 19th C.--those very familiar knives with silver hilts and scabbards. Just as you must have, I've handled scores of these over the years and older examples show similar wear and oxidation to the Lao example I show above.

But back to our two theories. If I'm stating you correctly, you believe that the Burmese developed the distinctive repoussed, segmented style of scabbard as a highly decorative and prestigious form, almost entirely for distinguished individuals and presentation pieces. You would date this development to the appearance of the British in Burma, and specifically around the mid-19th C. Therefore, the appearance of these features on Lao/northern Thai swords would have been in imitation of the Burmese style.

My competing idea is that this style evolved from an earlier Lan Chang (i.e. Lao) style following the collapse of the Lan Chang era in the early 18th C. This would place it primarily as a Lao style, with perhaps later diffusion to Burma. [There are, of course, other explanations such as independent parallel development of the two, which seems unlikely, or that both developed from a (presently unknown) prior style.]

In support of your view, you point to the large number of Thai/Lao swords you have seen and handled (and there are many on your site), and how rare it is to see segmented scabbards on these. That's a powerful argument, but not exactly a systematic attempt to answer the question of whether these segmented forms developed from an earlier Lan Chang style. Indeed, to disprove your Burmese origin theory it would only be necessary to find one or two Lao/Thai examples that predate the mid-19th C.

I have provided pictures of what I think is a 19th C. Lao example. You question that dating. Fair enough.

As with so many competing theories in our field, we need to have clearly provenanced pieces. These are likely to be found in museums of far away places which I seldom get to these days. Or they might be located in some of the former colonial countries. Or they may reside in the hands of some of our readers who will post them here.

Let's see if anything shows up.

Ian.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd February 2017, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I am confident that the first example in my last post here is not from the 1970s. Its condition and the amount of oxidation on the silver compare to provenanced examples of Shan knives from the 19th C.--those very familiar knives with silver hilts and scabbards. Just as you must have, I've handled scores of these over the years and older examples show similar wear and oxidation to the Lao example I show above.

Hi Ian,

A point worth noting about the oxidisation from my experience is that degrees of colour and patina is based on impurities in the silvers used.
I've found it in both 18th and 20th century silver, some with native hallmarks.
I am sure it is not limited to, but the higher quality silvers have patinated to blues and purples, whilst others from both ends of the age window have been blackish, brown copperish and even hints of gold in places where some form of flux has been used.
With regards to the hallmarks, I'd guess it is like any other known form of noting that tax has been paid on the silver sheets used. Again, I am sure it is not limited to, but those of an appearance you wouldn't consider silver until polished, I'd expect them at face value to be from more provincial areas where regulations and taxes were less exacting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

But back to our two theories. If I'm stating you correctly, you believe that the Burmese developed the distinctive repoussed, segmented style of scabbard as a highly decorative and prestigious form, almost entirely for distinguished individuals and presentation pieces. You would date this development to the appearance of the British in Burma, and specifically around the mid-19th C. Therefore, the appearance of these features on Lao/northern Thai swords would have been in imitation of the Burmese style.

Not quite; I do not believe The Lao/Thai swords are an imitation of at all. If anything, and only as a matter of thought, not fact, that the Burmese "Story" Dah developed in its own right from inspiration of the repousse silver hilts swords of Thai/Lao swords. I am sceptical about the sectional repousse scabbards of Laos being any older that the 1950-70s. Has anyone an image of these reputed royal Laos swords from which Thit Thong Ratanakorn copied his swords from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

My competing idea is that this style evolved from an earlier Lan Chang (i.e. Lao) style following the collapse of the Lan Chang era in the early 18th C. This would place it primarily as a Lao style, with perhaps later diffusion to Burma. [There are, of course, other explanations such as independent parallel development of the two, which seems unlikely, or that both developed from a (presently unknown) prior style.]

In support of your view, you point to the large number of Thai/Lao swords you have seen and handled (and there are many on your site), and how rare it is to see segmented scabbards on these. That's a powerful argument, but not exactly a systematic attempt to answer the question of whether these segmented forms developed from an earlier Lan Chang style. Indeed, to disprove your Burmese origin theory it would only be necessary to find one or two Lao/Thai examples that predate the mid-19th C.

I have provided pictures of what I think is a 19th C. Lao example. You question that dating. Fair enough.

As with so many competing theories in our field, we need to have clearly provenanced pieces. These are likely to be found in museums of far away places which I seldom get to these days. Or they might be located in some of the former colonial countries. Or they may reside in the hands of some of our readers who will post them here.

Let's see if anything shows up.

Ian.

Gavin

Ian · 23rd February 2017, 05:47 PM

Hi Gavin:

Thanks again for your thoughts and experience with these swords. Very helpful.

In pursuing my research further, I looked at another online source of some size, namely Artzi Yarom's archives on his Oriental Arms web site. Artzi presently lists some 600 swords he has sold in his Indo-China/China/Tibet grouping. Within his swords I found three (one Burmese, two Thai/Lao) that are of the segmented scabbard type we are describing here and which were not simply plain silver panels on the scabbard (another two Thai/Lao examples had the plain silver panels).

Attached I have copied the pictures from Artzi's site. I did not count the total number of dha/daab on his site, but a fair estimate might be that one in four or one in five of the items (i.e., 120-150) shown were dha/daab; of these about two-thirds had scabbards. An estimate of the sample size from which these segmented scabbard swords was drawn is thus roughly a hundred in total. That gives us an overall prevalence for segmented scabbards of around 3% based on Artzi's collected experience over the last however many years he has been maintaining his site (about 15-20 years I think). I would call that rate of 3% "uncommon" but not "rare."

When looking at the examples he has on record, I found the two Thai/Lao swords with segmented scabbards appeared to have some age. One has no lotus bud pommel, and the other has a larger, more flamboyant type similar to what is seen on some of the Burmese presentation dha that you referenced. The third example, a Burmese "Story Dha," has a lotus pommel also, which is not particularly large.

The final example from Artzi's site is one of the Thai/Lao swords with an undecorated segmented scabbard. Here the equal lengths of panels is apparent, but there is no engraving or repoussed work on the silver. This might reflect an earlier form of the style, but I have no evidence to support that view.

Would appreciate your thoughts.

Ian.

----------------Attachments-----------------

Thai/Lao daab with segmented scabbard.

Thai/Lao daab with segmented scabbard. Hilt has a large lotus bud pommel.

Burmese "story dha" with segmented scabbard. Hilt has a lotus pommel.

.

Ian · 23rd February 2017, 05:52 PM

Here is the Thai/Lao example with a segmented scabbard but without decoration on the silver panels. The style of this one reminds me of the Thai/Lao daab I posted above with the repoussed panels.

---------------Attachment----------------

Thai/Lao daab with segmented silver scabbard with undecorated panels.

.

Gavin Nugent · 24th February 2017, 04:26 AM

I love Pandora's box Ian, everything goes right out the window in such a mish mash region :-)

About the swords you presented.

#1, I am honestly, not entirely convinced that is an original marriage of blade and scabbard, something to discuss as we go if the sword surfaces and better images and information is available.

#2, I see this as Shan Burma work, exactly what museums have noted with shallow repousse work.

#3, I see this as Shan Burma silver craft as well.

#4, I cannot from the images so one way or the other but I see that this could also be Shan Burma

A question that comes to mind, and it comes to mind because of the generic term used, What constitutes a "Story" Dah?
Must it jut be the blade telling the story or much the scabbard also tell a story in repousse? Must the story, if a blade only is to be considered, must it tell of the tale/s of Jataka or simply be decoration of birds, elephants and chinthe?
Using this link for example, there are Burmese swords, do both classify as "Story" Dah, one fullly decorated blade, one partial? Note the more common sectional scabbard there too.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...23&postcount=5

I've added a random sectional scabbard image below on a sword I'd call Northern Thai in to Laos.

Many of my sold swords, I can say with conviction, my opinions have changed over time as information comes to hand...say s990 for example. Once I thought this to be Thai for many reasons, now I consider it Shan Burma based on the Vittorio Emanuele sword and those swords in the 1903 Delhi Durbar images. Some others, I'd add more specific data given the chance.

Lets look to Mark's site,there is a good amount of Dah and Daab to choose from with sectional scabbard and decorated blades. I have only chosen sword length inventory.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0011.htm
This is the exact type of demise in the craft that I previously mentioned and the larger pairs I know were purchased in 1954 in Kachin Burma.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0051.htm
Another of the Burma plain sectional type. "Story" blade.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0065.htm
Another Burma, I've quite a few of these in my sold listing, with many different decorations to the blades, hence my question above, what makes a story Dha?

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0062.htm
An interesting sword, I'd call the blade Laos through to Tonkin border regions but the dress Shan. Its in the same basket I placed sold stock s990.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0064.htm
Shan sectional silver dress...these sword types have the thinest finest silver sheet, hardly comparable to the type initially presented here which are thick, heavy and robust sections. Which leads me to a point of note, about from Iains sectional example and the scabbard of the one I question from Artzi's site, I personally would say that most others mentioned of plain sectional type found on the Thai/Lao sword types would crush and crumple under hand if not supported by the timber core.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0070.htm
As per inventory 0064 above. You can see how easily the silver breaks and creases.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0069.htm
I note Mark's question mark, and I can see the confusion...Laos Shan gets my vote, but even then its rocky....I think it could be a marriage.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm
The sword in the initial thread post, one we should get back to in the discussion :-)

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0075.htm
Its a real nice Burman Dah, but coming back to my question, what makes a "story" dah a Story Dah...this is only decoration...

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0008.htm
Another Burman blade decorated with animals...does it quality...

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0013.htm
Another nice Shan Dah with fill silver sectional scabbard.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0015.htm
No much to say other than there is sections and its Burma???

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0036.htm
Low repousse sectional Burmese Dah of nice form.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0045.htm
As a note, this is the typical Thai Laos silver scabbard form, single sheet with seperate end...I provide a sectional example in the image below, a rare aspect.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0050.htm
Another showing the typical scabbard design I note about, nice to see the hilt apart, showing the robust sections of the hilt.

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0052.htm
Another nice all sectional silver Shan Dah.

Gavin

23rd February 2017, 05:47 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Pictures from Oriental Arms site (Part 1) Hi Gavin: Thanks again for your thoughts and experience with these swords. Very helpful. In pursuing my research further, I looked at another online source of some size, namely Artzi Yarom's archives on his Oriental Arms web site. Artzi presently lists some 600 swords he has sold in his Indo-China/China/Tibet grouping. Within his swords I found three (one Burmese, two Thai/Lao) that are of the segmented scabbard type we are describing here and which were not simply plain silver panels on the scabbard (another two Thai/Lao examples had the plain silver panels). Attached I have copied the pictures from Artzi's site. I did not count the total number of dha/daab on his site, but a fair estimate might be that one in four or one in five of the items (i.e., 120-150) shown were dha/daab; of these about two-thirds had scabbards. An estimate of the sample size from which these segmented scabbard swords was drawn is thus roughly a hundred in total. That gives us an overall prevalence for segmented scabbards of around 3% based on Artzi's collected experience over the last however many years he has been maintaining his site (about 15-20 years I think). I would call that rate of 3% "uncommon" but not "rare." When looking at the examples he has on record, I found the two Thai/Lao swords with segmented scabbards appeared to have some age. One has no lotus bud pommel, and the other has a larger, more flamboyant type similar to what is seen on some of the Burmese presentation dha that you referenced. The third example, a Burmese "Story Dha," has a lotus pommel also, which is not particularly large. The final example from Artzi's site is one of the Thai/Lao swords with an undecorated segmented scabbard. Here the equal lengths of panels is apparent, but there is no engraving or repoussed work on the silver. This might reflect an earlier form of the style, but I have no evidence to support that view. Would appreciate your thoughts. Ian. ----------------Attachments----------------- Thai/Lao daab with segmented scabbard. Thai/Lao daab with segmented scabbard. Hilt has a large lotus bud pommel. Burmese "story dha" with segmented scabbard. Hilt has a lotus pommel. . Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 23rd February 2017 at 06:00 PM.

23rd February 2017, 05:52 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Pictures from Oriental Arms' site (part 2) Here is the Thai/Lao example with a segmented scabbard but without decoration on the silver panels. The style of this one reminds me of the Thai/Lao daab I posted above with the repoussed panels. ---------------Attachment---------------- Thai/Lao daab with segmented silver scabbard with undecorated panels. . Attached Images

24th February 2017, 04:26 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Pandora I love Pandora's box Ian, everything goes right out the window in such a mish mash region :-) About the swords you presented. #1, I am honestly, not entirely convinced that is an original marriage of blade and scabbard, something to discuss as we go if the sword surfaces and better images and information is available. #2, I see this as Shan Burma work, exactly what museums have noted with shallow repousse work. #3, I see this as Shan Burma silver craft as well. #4, I cannot from the images so one way or the other but I see that this could also be Shan Burma A question that comes to mind, and it comes to mind because of the generic term used, What constitutes a "Story" Dah? Must it jut be the blade telling the story or much the scabbard also tell a story in repousse? Must the story, if a blade only is to be considered, must it tell of the tale/s of Jataka or simply be decoration of birds, elephants and chinthe? Using this link for example, there are Burmese swords, do both classify as "Story" Dah, one fullly decorated blade, one partial? Note the more common sectional scabbard there too. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...23&postcount=5 I've added a random sectional scabbard image below on a sword I'd call Northern Thai in to Laos. Many of my sold swords, I can say with conviction, my opinions have changed over time as information comes to hand...say s990 for example. Once I thought this to be Thai for many reasons, now I consider it Shan Burma based on the Vittorio Emanuele sword and those swords in the 1903 Delhi Durbar images. Some others, I'd add more specific data given the chance. Lets look to Mark's site,there is a good amount of Dah and Daab to choose from with sectional scabbard and decorated blades. I have only chosen sword length inventory. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0011.htm This is the exact type of demise in the craft that I previously mentioned and the larger pairs I know were purchased in 1954 in Kachin Burma. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0051.htm Another of the Burma plain sectional type. "Story" blade. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0065.htm Another Burma, I've quite a few of these in my sold listing, with many different decorations to the blades, hence my question above, what makes a story Dha? http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0062.htm An interesting sword, I'd call the blade Laos through to Tonkin border regions but the dress Shan. Its in the same basket I placed sold stock s990. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0064.htm Shan sectional silver dress...these sword types have the thinest finest silver sheet, hardly comparable to the type initially presented here which are thick, heavy and robust sections. Which leads me to a point of note, about from Iains sectional example and the scabbard of the one I question from Artzi's site, I personally would say that most others mentioned of plain sectional type found on the Thai/Lao sword types would crush and crumple under hand if not supported by the timber core. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0070.htm As per inventory 0064 above. You can see how easily the silver breaks and creases. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0069.htm I note Mark's question mark, and I can see the confusion...Laos Shan gets my vote, but even then its rocky....I think it could be a marriage. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm The sword in the initial thread post, one we should get back to in the discussion :-) http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0075.htm Its a real nice Burman Dah, but coming back to my question, what makes a "story" dah a Story Dah...this is only decoration... http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0008.htm Another Burman blade decorated with animals...does it quality... http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0013.htm Another nice Shan Dah with fill silver sectional scabbard. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0015.htm No much to say other than there is sections and its Burma??? http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0036.htm Low repousse sectional Burmese Dah of nice form. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0045.htm As a note, this is the typical Thai Laos silver scabbard form, single sheet with seperate end...I provide a sectional example in the image below, a rare aspect. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0050.htm Another showing the typical scabbard design I note about, nice to see the hilt apart, showing the robust sections of the hilt. http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0052.htm Another nice all sectional silver Shan Dah. Gavin Attached Images

22nd February 2017, 06:30 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Ian, The 1970's craftsman name that eludes you is Thit Thong Ratanakorn. I personally feel that the sword you suspect is 19th century silver dress is more likely of the period of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn sword. Of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn swords, I must have seen 30+ of the type now...I've even seen them in sets of three with sizes relating to the Katana, Waka and Tanto...all the same style with ivory hilts. The segmented scabbard types are certainly uncommon as a whole, but also rather common when they all start getting documented. You did well to pick through my unorganised sold stock link...you'll see another 3 fine examples in my latest swap forum post, a fellow collector that I've been put in touch with also has two similar, here is another rare short example from these pages; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...06&postcount=1 There is the Vittorio Emanuele the 2nd gem encrusted Burmese dah with segmented scabbard, non repousse but gem encrusted at the joins, a sword akin to those pictured in the hands of the body guards of Shan Princes in this article here; http://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/research-d...na-and-the-tai Other Burmese types have passed through my hands and numerous others seen online over the years.. Comparatively, I know of the Thit Thong Ratanakorn which are often flogged off as 19th century are auctions and dealers...so I guess, when you include this Laos revival of the 70's, it is more a 50/50 spread and not all that uncommon on either side of the border. There is a non repousse silver three segment scabbard in a well know Thai Silverware book. I personally feel that these Laos swords were inspired by the Burmese repousse dah of the Raj and later independent Burma. Gavin

22nd February 2017, 04:18 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi Gavin: Well, I guess we have two different theories about this style. I am confident that the first example in my last post here is not from the 1970s. Its condition and the amount of oxidation on the silver compare to provenanced examples of Shan knives from the 19th C.--those very familiar knives with silver hilts and scabbards. Just as you must have, I've handled scores of these over the years and older examples show similar wear and oxidation to the Lao example I show above. But back to our two theories. If I'm stating you correctly, you believe that the Burmese developed the distinctive repoussed, segmented style of scabbard as a highly decorative and prestigious form, almost entirely for distinguished individuals and presentation pieces. You would date this development to the appearance of the British in Burma, and specifically around the mid-19th C. Therefore, the appearance of these features on Lao/northern Thai swords would have been in imitation of the Burmese style. My competing idea is that this style evolved from an earlier Lan Chang (i.e. Lao) style following the collapse of the Lan Chang era in the early 18th C. This would place it primarily as a Lao style, with perhaps later diffusion to Burma. [There are, of course, other explanations such as independent parallel development of the two, which seems unlikely, or that both developed from a (presently unknown) prior style.] In support of your view, you point to the large number of Thai/Lao swords you have seen and handled (and there are many on your site), and how rare it is to see segmented scabbards on these. That's a powerful argument, but not exactly a systematic attempt to answer the question of whether these segmented forms developed from an earlier Lan Chang style. Indeed, to disprove your Burmese origin theory it would only be necessary to find one or two Lao/Thai examples that predate the mid-19th C. I have provided pictures of what I think is a 19th C. Lao example. You question that dating. Fair enough. As with so many competing theories in our field, we need to have clearly provenanced pieces. These are likely to be found in museums of far away places which I seldom get to these days. Or they might be located in some of the former colonial countries. Or they may reside in the hands of some of our readers who will post them here. Let's see if anything shows up. Ian.