A beautiful Burmese dha dated 1798

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2017, 01:12 AM

Thank you for bringing this thread back Gav! Its been a few years

and good to see this analytic look at dhas and seeing the core of knowledge with the guys in the discussion. Given the brilliant work by Ian on the 'what is this sword ?' thread.....this is perfectly timed.
I look forward to learning more on these as my knowledge on them is limited, but they are a fascinating form .

Ian · 17th February 2017, 02:54 AM

Gavin:

Thanks for bringing this one back up. Interesting that you mention a Lao or Thai flavor to some of the decoration. I was thinking the same thing about the segmented silver panels that run the length of the scabbard. I have thought this was a particularly Lao trait, with multiple panels used to depict various elements in repoussed silver. Of course, the finding of Lao work on Burmese swords is perhaps not surprising, and if I recall correctly the Burmese enslaved Lao craftsmen during one of their conquering expeditions, as did the Thai.

I think you are correct that the "story dhas" did increase during the period of British rule and involvement in Burma. They are certainly quite common in Western markets and most do seem to date from the mid-19th C. on. Whether they existed prior to the British period I don't know.

I have a presentation dha somewhat similar to Mark's but with an ivory and silver hilt. This one bears an inscription dated 1915. It is tucked away in storage, but I will try to find it and post pictures here.

Ian.

Ian · 19th February 2017, 06:41 PM

Gavin:

I'm having trouble locating the one I mentioned. But I did find the attached picture online (Pinterest) with a caption saying it was dated 1931. The scabbard has a similar segmented silver treatment, with various Buddhist icons and symbols, much like Mark's dha. I view this style of repoussed silver work as Lao. Would you agree? Also, the blade on this one looks fairly good and the silver work is good but not great. Do you think the blade might predate the inscription by a few decades?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Ian.

Gavin Nugent · 20th February 2017, 01:35 AM

Hi Ian,

As I rely on others translating the Burmese script for me, I could not without proper review of the text and the blade in the hand, assess the age of the blade...but I must say, the silver application to the blade is better than most for 1930s, that much is certain to my eye.

The silver work of the scabbard dress is Burmese, the Laos notation I previously made, as you know, was only for the hilt binding of Marks sword. An interesting point made by several researchers is that the Shan smiths involved with this craft, of which I am sure many were in these guilds, their silver work was flatter and more floral which might account for some swords that I have seen with these stunning high relief repousse silver scabbards and low relief hilts?
A point of note too, of all these sword types that I have seen and handled, they ALL have a large lotus bud pommel, of varying designs and that that were not of the lotus bud shape specifically, were decorated in lotus bud and flower repousse designs.

With regards to the quality of silver work in this sword that you present, especially seen on the pommel, it shows a general great decline in the art by 1930...I wish I could see more detail of the panels...they look real nice.
An interesting anomaly that I have noticed with several of these sword now, is that well in to the 30's and beyond by many decades, the scabbard repousse panels have remained far superior to the work on the hilts and pommels...an aspect I can't explain with any accuracy. A surplus of old silver fittings? A conglomeration of guilds? Dies for scabbard panels remained undamaged? A change of direction in the craft? But again, there are other examples that date from 1948-75 which bear the state seal of Burma which are exquisite quality throughout? Perhaps it all come down to budget for each sword as these sword types are generally considered to be state and diplomatic gifts and each person who was to receive the gift may have a set amount of funds aside by the state for the swords making?

Gavin

Ian · 20th February 2017, 05:04 AM

Hi Gavin:

I want to press you a little further on the repoussed silver work on the scabbards of these swords. I understand that these scabbards were likely produced in Burma, either by Burmese craftsmen or imported metal smiths.

I think you would agree that it is unusual to find this segmented style of silver scabbard on Burmese dha, with the exception of these "story dha" that seem to have arisen around the mid-19th C. as commemorative items and perhaps for foreign consumption.

The arrangement of the scabbard elements into contiguous cells or segments is very similar to what has been found on Lao hilts and scabbards that pre-date this period and that appear to have evolved in the mid- to late-18th C. (from an earlier Lan Xang style). Some of the Lao silver work of that period was particularly fine, and they seem to have brought the repoussed metal technique to a fine art in the second half of the 18th C. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Burmese repoussed metalware was found to a great degree or of a high quality in the late 18th C.--those techniques and skills being learned and adopted from the Lao around that time.

I would like to have your thoughts on this as I have several repoussed silver scabbards on Lao and Burmese swords that appear quite similar.

Regards,

Ian.

Gavin Nugent · 20th February 2017, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Gavin:

I want to press you a little further on the repoussed silver work on the scabbards of these swords. I understand that these scabbards were likely produced in Burma, either by Burmese craftsmen or imported metal smiths.

I think you would agree that it is unusual to find this segmented style of silver scabbard on Burmese dha, with the exception of these "story dha" that seem to have arisen around the mid-19th C. as commemorative items and perhaps for foreign consumption.

The arrangement of the scabbard elements into contiguous cells or segments is very similar to what has been found on Lao hilts and scabbards that pre-date this period and that appear to have evolved in the mid- to late-18th C. (from an earlier Lan Xang style). Some of the Lao silver work of that period was particularly fine, and they seem to have brought the repoussed metal technique to a fine art in the second half of the 18th C. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Burmese repoussed metalware was found to a great degree or of a high quality in the late 18th C.--those techniques and skills being learned and adopted from the Lao around that time.

I would like to have your thoughts on this as I have several repoussed silver scabbards on Lao and Burmese swords that appear quite similar.

Regards,

Ian.

Hi Ian,

Segmented scabbards are very common on many types of Burmese Dah in plain and repousse styling and far less common on Laos and Thai swords which for 90+% are plain silver sheet with embellished ends...the other 10% or less that are of segmented scabbards are rarely seen and usually not repousse.

Hilts are a different story, for centuries, as you note, this aspect has been present on Thai and Laos swords...why did it not follow through to the scabbard in these countries in these times? On Royal swords it did, but not to my knowledge segmented types of scabbards but certainly repousse.
All others were suspended by baldrics could be one answer as why they weren't repousse scabbard as Royal swords had sword bearers. These Burmese swords are hung by suspension loops in a very European manner, not baldric or sash worn and can display such work.

If I understand correctly the swords you refer to, are mostly royal swords and none to my knowledge are interlocked in the manner of these "story" dah except the 1970s zodiac examples which are reputed to be based on swords held by the royal house...swords I've never seen.

Who genetically worked in these Burmese guilds I cannot say, but as a Burmese production under the British Raj and later Independent Burmese government, we are talking 150+ years here of craft here I see the people as Burmese and English. During the period of the manufacture of these prestigious swords and other fine export silver, there were clear lines/borders defined between the colonial powers of Britain and France...

Gavin

Ian · 22nd February 2017, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gavin Nugent:

Hi Ian,

Segmented scabbards are very common on many types of Burmese Dah in plain and repousse styling and far less common on Laos and Thai swords which for 90+% are plain silver sheet with embellished ends...the other 10% or less that are of segmented scabbards are rarely seen and usually not repousse.

Hilts are a different story, for centuries, as you note, this aspect has been present on Thai and Laos swords...why did it not follow through to the scabbard in these countries in these times? On Royal swords it did, but not to my knowledge segmented types of scabbards but certainly repousse.
All others were suspended by baldrics could be one answer as why they weren't repousse scabbard as Royal swords had sword bearers. These Burmese swords are hung by suspension loops in a very European manner, not baldric or sash worn and can display such work.

If I understand correctly the swords you refer to, are mostly royal swords and none to my knowledge are interlocked in the manner of these "story" dah except the 1970s zodiac examples which are reputed to be based on swords held by the royal house...swords I've never seen.

Who genetically worked in these Burmese guilds I cannot say, but as a Burmese production under the British Raj and later Independent Burmese government, we are talking 150+ years here of craft here I see the people as Burmese and English. During the period of the manufacture of these prestigious swords and other fine export silver, there were clear lines/borders defined between the colonial powers of Britain and France...

Gavin

Hi Gavin:

Hmmm. Perhaps we are talking about slightly different things.

In any case, I am posting here two swords that I think show the segmented Lao scabbards. The first also has a segmented hilt.

The first one I posted here about eight months ago when I picked it up online. Having cleaned the hilt and scabbard, the silver work has come up rather well to show some nice repousse work and an unadorned segment on the scabbard where the rope baldric would have been attached. In fact, there are still very faint impressions of the rope that once wound around it. Judging from the condition of the silver work, its style, and quality (good but not great) I would think it is from the 19th C. Incidentally, the blade that came with these fittings was a late 20th C. replacement and a piece of junk!

The second is a late 20th C. sword made by a Lao craftsman whose name I knew once but now cannot find in my records. There are at least three or four of these swords that he has made, maybe more. I purchased this one in the 1990s. The silver covered scabbard has a series of segments in which a different animal is depicted. The ivory hilt on this one is not segmented, but I like the "naked" ivory tusk and silver work. (Incidentally, Scott Rodell has a fine Cochin saber with a similar hilt that appears on his web site. I had the pleasure of handling this sword a few years ago at Timonium and it was beautifully balanced.)

I have another two or three examples similar to the first one, so I don't think that these segmented scabbards are necessarily "rare" on Lao swords, however I do believe they are a distinct style that the Lao developed.

When it comes to Burmese scabbards, I think we are probably talking about different things. To get a handle on your impressions, I went to your web site and looked through all your old pics. I found four Burmese dha with what I would call segmented scabbard decorations--these were all high end, presentation type swords. I excluded Shan and Yunnan decorated dha that might give the appearance of segmented patterns along the scabbard, but which have cut out areas where the wood shows through--clearly a different style from the Lao segmented scabbards.

The numbers of Thai and Lao daab on your site were too numerous to count, but a quick inspection showed few, if any, with the segmented patterns that I show below. A substantial fraction had no scabbard.

It seems that the segmented pattern of which I am talking is not common, on either Burmese or Thai/Lao swords. I know there are others here who collect dha/daab and perhaps they could share some of their examples.

Ian.

17th February 2017, 02:54 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Gavin: Thanks for bringing this one back up. Interesting that you mention a Lao or Thai flavor to some of the decoration. I was thinking the same thing about the segmented silver panels that run the length of the scabbard. I have thought this was a particularly Lao trait, with multiple panels used to depict various elements in repoussed silver. Of course, the finding of Lao work on Burmese swords is perhaps not surprising, and if I recall correctly the Burmese enslaved Lao craftsmen during one of their conquering expeditions, as did the Thai. I think you are correct that the "story dhas" did increase during the period of British rule and involvement in Burma. They are certainly quite common in Western markets and most do seem to date from the mid-19th C. on. Whether they existed prior to the British period I don't know. I have a presentation dha somewhat similar to Mark's but with an ivory and silver hilt. This one bears an inscription dated 1915. It is tucked away in storage, but I will try to find it and post pictures here. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 17th February 2017 at 05:02 AM.

19th February 2017, 06:41 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Gavin: I'm having trouble locating the one I mentioned. But I did find the attached picture online (Pinterest) with a caption saying it was dated 1931. The scabbard has a similar segmented silver treatment, with various Buddhist icons and symbols, much like Mark's dha. I view this style of repoussed silver work as Lao. Would you agree? Also, the blade on this one looks fairly good and the silver work is good but not great. Do you think the blade might predate the inscription by a few decades? Appreciate your thoughts. Ian. Attached Images

20th February 2017, 01:35 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Ian, As I rely on others translating the Burmese script for me, I could not without proper review of the text and the blade in the hand, assess the age of the blade...but I must say, the silver application to the blade is better than most for 1930s, that much is certain to my eye. The silver work of the scabbard dress is Burmese, the Laos notation I previously made, as you know, was only for the hilt binding of Marks sword. An interesting point made by several researchers is that the Shan smiths involved with this craft, of which I am sure many were in these guilds, their silver work was flatter and more floral which might account for some swords that I have seen with these stunning high relief repousse silver scabbards and low relief hilts? A point of note too, of all these sword types that I have seen and handled, they ALL have a large lotus bud pommel, of varying designs and that that were not of the lotus bud shape specifically, were decorated in lotus bud and flower repousse designs. With regards to the quality of silver work in this sword that you present, especially seen on the pommel, it shows a general great decline in the art by 1930...I wish I could see more detail of the panels...they look real nice. An interesting anomaly that I have noticed with several of these sword now, is that well in to the 30's and beyond by many decades, the scabbard repousse panels have remained far superior to the work on the hilts and pommels...an aspect I can't explain with any accuracy. A surplus of old silver fittings? A conglomeration of guilds? Dies for scabbard panels remained undamaged? A change of direction in the craft? But again, there are other examples that date from 1948-75 which bear the state seal of Burma which are exquisite quality throughout? Perhaps it all come down to budget for each sword as these sword types are generally considered to be state and diplomatic gifts and each person who was to receive the gift may have a set amount of funds aside by the state for the swords making? Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 20th February 2017 at 01:50 AM.

17th February 2017, 01:12 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Thank you for bringing this thread back Gav! Its been a few years and good to see this analytic look at dhas and seeing the core of knowledge with the guys in the discussion. Given the brilliant work by Ian on the 'what is this sword ?' thread.....this is perfectly timed. I look forward to learning more on these as my knowledge on them is limited, but they are a fascinating form .

20th February 2017, 05:04 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi Gavin: I want to press you a little further on the repoussed silver work on the scabbards of these swords. I understand that these scabbards were likely produced in Burma, either by Burmese craftsmen or imported metal smiths. I think you would agree that it is unusual to find this segmented style of silver scabbard on Burmese dha, with the exception of these "story dha" that seem to have arisen around the mid-19th C. as commemorative items and perhaps for foreign consumption. The arrangement of the scabbard elements into contiguous cells or segments is very similar to what has been found on Lao hilts and scabbards that pre-date this period and that appear to have evolved in the mid- to late-18th C. (from an earlier Lan Xang style). Some of the Lao silver work of that period was particularly fine, and they seem to have brought the repoussed metal technique to a fine art in the second half of the 18th C. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Burmese repoussed metalware was found to a great degree or of a high quality in the late 18th C.--those techniques and skills being learned and adopted from the Lao around that time. I would like to have your thoughts on this as I have several repoussed silver scabbards on Lao and Burmese swords that appear quite similar. Regards, Ian.