A Spanish rapier Early 17TH century

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2017, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Experts are like physicians; always studying new discoveries

.

Very well put Fernando!
Jasper, my opinion stands, and thank you for the insight into this pattern.
Grid is exactly the term I was looking for and I see what you mean on its occurrence on dusagges and now recall seeing that.

Philip · 15th February 2017, 06:55 AM

Globular or spherical pommels per se weren't restricted to the Netherlands. Note a north Italian example, inv. no. 1776, Museo Poldi Pezzoli (Milano), publ. Boccia/Coelho 1975, #485. The swept hilt is cataloged as 1580-90, from Belluno; earlier riding-swords and backswords from this area which are practically identical to Styrian counterparts also share this feature (Coll. Luigi Marzoli, Brescia, inv. no. G 21 and G 23). A faceted version of the sphere can be seen on a somewhat simpler swept hilt on a rapier identified by Capwell as possibly Italian, 1570-80, Wallace Collection inv. no. A576, publ. Norman 1986, p 134.

Grid filework is also seen on a few Italian rapier hilts, q.v. inv. no. 2575, Museo Poldi Pezzoli, with an example depicted in art, "Portrait of a Gentleman" by Bartolomeo Passarotti 1571, Museo Bardini (Firenze), both publ Boccia/Coelho 1975, # 465, 466-67. It must be said, however, that these Italian examples are a bit more elegantly proportioned than the hilt on the sword discussed here.

Jim McDougall · 15th February 2017, 10:56 PM

Anybody out there have any thoughts or ideas on the rather crudely incised lettering and unusual spelling in the FRAN'Z'ISCO RUIZ ??? the curious 'crescent' (?) at the forte? The absence of the Ruiz punzone?

fernando · 16th February 2017, 02:30 PM

There is no punzon, as there is no FranZisco Ruiz. How many spurious spellings of great Masters like Ayala, for one, do you know, Jim ?
You are left to crack the riddle of the crescent presence

.

.

Jim McDougall · 16th February 2017, 05:59 PM

OK Fernando, that was the point, it is a spurious use of the name, so obviously the punzone (or is it punSone?

) is absent.
With the erratic letters in the inscription which are almost crudely executed I fear this is even beyond the usual Solingen placement, and with the number of rapier examples that have been in circulation using the Francisco Ruiz name (a number are less than authentic) I wonder on this.
Could it be a Solingen blade with poorly applied letters but of the period by a maker without the usual rack system?

The apparent crescent is a conundrum in itself, is this an equally inept attempt at the 'espadero del rey' mark?

I do not like negatively questioning a weapon, which is otherwise a most attractive and interesting piece, but these factors must be considered.

fernando · 18th February 2017, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...so obviously the punzone (or is it punSone?

) is absent.

Actualy spelt punzón, plural punzones

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...is this an equally inept attempt at the 'espadero del rey' mark? ...

Is there a mark for espaderos del rey, Jim ? can you expand on that ?

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2017, 02:37 AM

Thanks for the spell check Nando, that was a shameless pun on my part

On the mark of the 'Espaderos del Rey', from Wallace Collection (Sir James Mann, 1962):
A545 (p.279), a rapier c.1620, "...the incongruous combination of a Toledo mark and the half moon of an Espadero del Rey with the name of the Italian bladesmith Andrea Ferara suggest this is a product of Solingen".

A652 (p.331), a cup hilt rapier Spanish c1635; blade German (?)

"...the ricasso, inside the cup stamped on each side with a makers mark and the half moon of an Espadero del Rey. "
Further noted the the mark ST is said to be for Tomas de Ayala and that the Stantlers of Munich also used the letters ST (a crowned ST) along with the name Sebastian Hernandez. The four sided blade on this example is noted to not be usually found on cup hilt rapiers.

It would appear that the half moons (which typically look like Tarot card characters with man in the moon face), were somehow often used along with makers punzon in Spain, for Espaderos del Rey (the Kings artisans).
However it is unclear whether this was a broadly used designation or strictly for select makers. The only maker noted as such by Palomares was of course Julian del Rey (with the perillo, or little dog, rampant) but no note I am aware of) with a half moon. If there is such instance you are aware of I would be grateful to know.

Clearly, the half moon mark became part of the Solingen repertoire of symbols and devices used by Solingen smiths along with other spurious Spanish names and punzones, and eventually became part of the astral groupings inscribed in Solingen blades.

This simple mark, looking in Rorschach test parlance, like a crescent (but facing the wrong direction) seems possibly an incongruent attempt to allude to the Spanish theme inscribed in the fuller with Ruiz' name.

15th February 2017, 06:55 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Spherical pommels / grid filework Globular or spherical pommels per se weren't restricted to the Netherlands. Note a north Italian example, inv. no. 1776, Museo Poldi Pezzoli (Milano), publ. Boccia/Coelho 1975, #485. The swept hilt is cataloged as 1580-90, from Belluno; earlier riding-swords and backswords from this area which are practically identical to Styrian counterparts also share this feature (Coll. Luigi Marzoli, Brescia, inv. no. G 21 and G 23). A faceted version of the sphere can be seen on a somewhat simpler swept hilt on a rapier identified by Capwell as possibly Italian, 1570-80, Wallace Collection inv. no. A576, publ. Norman 1986, p 134. Grid filework is also seen on a few Italian rapier hilts, q.v. inv. no. 2575, Museo Poldi Pezzoli, with an example depicted in art, "Portrait of a Gentleman" by Bartolomeo Passarotti 1571, Museo Bardini (Firenze), both publ Boccia/Coelho 1975, # 465, 466-67. It must be said, however, that these Italian examples are a bit more elegantly proportioned than the hilt on the sword discussed here.

15th February 2017, 10:56 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Anybody out there have any thoughts or ideas on the rather crudely incised lettering and unusual spelling in the FRAN'Z'ISCO RUIZ ??? the curious 'crescent' (?) at the forte? The absence of the Ruiz punzone?

16th February 2017, 02:30 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	There is no punzon, as there is no FranZisco Ruiz. How many spurious spellings of great Masters like Ayala, for one, do you know, Jim ? You are left to crack the riddle of the crescent presence . . Last edited by fernando; 16th February 2017 at 07:47 PM. Reason: spell

16th February 2017, 05:59 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	OK Fernando, that was the point, it is a spurious use of the name, so obviously the punzone (or is it punSone? ) is absent. With the erratic letters in the inscription which are almost crudely executed I fear this is even beyond the usual Solingen placement, and with the number of rapier examples that have been in circulation using the Francisco Ruiz name (a number are less than authentic) I wonder on this. Could it be a Solingen blade with poorly applied letters but of the period by a maker without the usual rack system? The apparent crescent is a conundrum in itself, is this an equally inept attempt at the 'espadero del rey' mark? I do not like negatively questioning a weapon, which is otherwise a most attractive and interesting piece, but these factors must be considered.

19th February 2017, 02:37 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thanks for the spell check Nando, that was a shameless pun on my part On the mark of the 'Espaderos del Rey', from Wallace Collection (Sir James Mann, 1962): A545 (p.279), a rapier c.1620, "...the incongruous combination of a Toledo mark and the half moon of an Espadero del Rey with the name of the Italian bladesmith Andrea Ferara suggest this is a product of Solingen". A652 (p.331), a cup hilt rapier Spanish c1635; blade German (?) "...the ricasso, inside the cup stamped on each side with a makers mark and the half moon of an Espadero del Rey. " Further noted the the mark ST is said to be for Tomas de Ayala and that the Stantlers of Munich also used the letters ST (a crowned ST) along with the name Sebastian Hernandez. The four sided blade on this example is noted to not be usually found on cup hilt rapiers. It would appear that the half moons (which typically look like Tarot card characters with man in the moon face), were somehow often used along with makers punzon in Spain, for Espaderos del Rey (the Kings artisans). However it is unclear whether this was a broadly used designation or strictly for select makers. The only maker noted as such by Palomares was of course Julian del Rey (with the perillo, or little dog, rampant) but no note I am aware of) with a half moon. If there is such instance you are aware of I would be grateful to know. Clearly, the half moon mark became part of the Solingen repertoire of symbols and devices used by Solingen smiths along with other spurious Spanish names and punzones, and eventually became part of the astral groupings inscribed in Solingen blades. This simple mark, looking in Rorschach test parlance, like a crescent (but facing the wrong direction) seems possibly an incongruent attempt to allude to the Spanish theme inscribed in the fuller with Ruiz' name.