Introduction

David · 2nd February 2017, 05:39 PM

Welcome to the forum. It would be helpful if you posted some images of the entire blade as well.

La Pagaru · 2nd February 2017, 06:05 PM

thanks have been received in this forum, this is a kris kris new artificial ground work of empu/panre in Sulawesi, and glad to meet you here sir david

David · 2nd February 2017, 10:20 PM

Yes La Pagaru, it looks like contemporary work. Would love to see more of the blade for a better sense of the over all garap.
As a point of process, like all new members you are in moderated status which requires that a moderator (myself or Rick) approve you posts before they appear. So if you don't see your post immediately please don't re-post. Either myself or Rick will get to your post in short order and pass it on to the forum. Thanks!

mariusgmioc · 3rd February 2017, 02:47 PM

I don't know much about Indonesian Kerises, but I certainly like the pamor of this one and would love to see the whole blade!

A. G. Maisey · 3rd February 2017, 07:47 PM

There is no keris upon which to pass comment, there is only a short section of very badly executed pattern welding.

David · 3rd February 2017, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There is no keris upon which to pass comment, there is only a short section of very badly executed pattern welding.

Hi Alan. Hopefully we will see more of this keris eventually as additional photos have been requested more than once, but in the meantime, perhaps you could expand upon your comment on bad execution for some of our members with less experience than you in the actual mechanics of the process. It is always best to display the entire blade along with detail shots when presenting a keris for discussion, but since La Pagura did specifically ask for opinions on the pamor (google translated that word as "prestige") what makes this pamor execution bad and why?

A. G. Maisey · 3rd February 2017, 09:55 PM

The pamor has been made by taking two twisted rods and welding them together.

The weld that joins the two rods should be tight and not display any gap.

Look closely at the joint between the two separate pieces of twisted material from which the pamor has been made.

There is a particular technique that is used to achieve a tight, clean joint with the technology available to smiths in Indonesia. The maker of this keris has not yet mastered this technique. I am not at liberty to explain this technique.

The forge work involved in making a keris is smith's work. Many, many empus and pande keris do not do their own welding, usually it is the makers who are just starting who do their own forge work. As soon as a maker gets a bit of a name for himself, he'll only pick up a hammer to have his photo taken. Forge work is hard, hot work. My normal weight is 82 kilos, if I do 6 hours of forge work, especially welding, that weight will drop to 79 kilos.

The empu's job is to know the techniques used to produce the pamor patterns and the correct dimensions and form of the finished forging. He uses the forge workers as if they were tools to produce these results. The smith needs two helpers (panjak) for heavy forging, he needs one helper for most other things.

In olden times the empu would normally have four, or even five, helpers on hand during the forging of a keris, and he would move these helpers around so that no one man could ever see enough to understand the full process. I own a copy of an empu's text book that was written under the aegis of the Surakarta Karaton. This text is very explicit in explaining how and when the various helpers are to be used.

Karyo di Kromo did exactly the same thing with Isaac Groneman.

To return to this keris.

I suspect that the garap of this keris will be pretty acceptable, but the forge work is not yet good enough.

Gustav · 3rd February 2017, 09:58 PM

Well, even for less experienced members like me it is clear that the welding line between the two bars has been blurred (it doesn't run with Ada-Ada), the frequency of Pamor motif (correspondence between bars) also runs wrong.

2nd February 2017, 05:39 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Welcome to the forum. It would be helpful if you posted some images of the entire blade as well.

2nd February 2017, 06:05 PM	#2
La Pagaru Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Indonesia Posts: 84	thanks have been received in this forum, this is a kris kris new artificial ground work of empu/panre in Sulawesi, and glad to meet you here sir david

2nd February 2017, 10:20 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Yes La Pagaru, it looks like contemporary work. Would love to see more of the blade for a better sense of the over all garap. As a point of process, like all new members you are in moderated status which requires that a moderator (myself or Rick) approve you posts before they appear. So if you don't see your post immediately please don't re-post. Either myself or Rick will get to your post in short order and pass it on to the forum. Thanks!

3rd February 2017, 02:47 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	I don't know much about Indonesian Kerises, but I certainly like the pamor of this one and would love to see the whole blade!

3rd February 2017, 07:47 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	There is no keris upon which to pass comment, there is only a short section of very badly executed pattern welding.

3rd February 2017, 09:55 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	The pamor has been made by taking two twisted rods and welding them together. The weld that joins the two rods should be tight and not display any gap. Look closely at the joint between the two separate pieces of twisted material from which the pamor has been made. There is a particular technique that is used to achieve a tight, clean joint with the technology available to smiths in Indonesia. The maker of this keris has not yet mastered this technique. I am not at liberty to explain this technique. The forge work involved in making a keris is smith's work. Many, many empus and pande keris do not do their own welding, usually it is the makers who are just starting who do their own forge work. As soon as a maker gets a bit of a name for himself, he'll only pick up a hammer to have his photo taken. Forge work is hard, hot work. My normal weight is 82 kilos, if I do 6 hours of forge work, especially welding, that weight will drop to 79 kilos. The empu's job is to know the techniques used to produce the pamor patterns and the correct dimensions and form of the finished forging. He uses the forge workers as if they were tools to produce these results. The smith needs two helpers (panjak) for heavy forging, he needs one helper for most other things. In olden times the empu would normally have four, or even five, helpers on hand during the forging of a keris, and he would move these helpers around so that no one man could ever see enough to understand the full process. I own a copy of an empu's text book that was written under the aegis of the Surakarta Karaton. This text is very explicit in explaining how and when the various helpers are to be used. Karyo di Kromo did exactly the same thing with Isaac Groneman. To return to this keris. I suspect that the garap of this keris will be pretty acceptable, but the forge work is not yet good enough.

3rd February 2017, 09:58 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Well, even for less experienced members like me it is clear that the welding line between the two bars has been blurred (it doesn't run with Ada-Ada), the frequency of Pamor motif (correspondence between bars) also runs wrong.