Another early shibriya

Miguel · 28th January 2017, 03:37 PM

Hello Motan, I would like to thank you for posting this interesting thread about Shibriyas. I have a few in my collection and have never really been able to find out much detail about them such as age, which particular tribes carried them, are they a general purpose or fighting weapon or both, where did the design originate from etc etc.?

I don't understand why there is so little information about them it would appear that have been under the radar or the experts have not thought them worthy enough to study, I personally find them a very interesting and deadly weapon having its own unique shape.

Having searched through my own reference books the only one which mentioned this dagger was Elgood`s Arms and Armour of Arabia and this was only quoting someone else who had commented that some tribes in northern Arabia carried a short, narrow knife. The knife being a shibriya and a tribe called Rwala all very vague and no illustrations or photos despite there being dozens of Jambiya and Khanjar illustrations, why none of the Shibriya, I don't understand.

I have taken the liberty of showing some pics of my Shimbriyas and would be grateful for your comments as I know next to nothing about them.

Their O/Ls without scabbard vary between 11 and 11.75 ins.

No 1:- Very plain but I feel it to be an old one?

No 2:- Still very plain with some decoration on the hilt. Again I have a feeling that this may be an old one. I think that the pommel is also interesting having not seen one on other Shimbriyas.

No 3:- this is more decorative and modern having the date of 1370 AH on the blade which I think equates to 1950/51 AD.

No 4:- Again more decorative and modern possibly similar date to No 3?

No 5:- Very decorative with the date 1900? on the blade. I am not sure if this is a date or something else as the style seems to be more modern.

Miguel · 28th January 2017, 03:41 PM

Shabriya N0 5.

Richard G · 28th January 2017, 07:37 PM

Miguel,
I would be interested to know what the coin is on your shibriya no.5.
Regards
Richard

motan · 28th January 2017, 11:01 PM

Hi Miguel, Thanks for asking. I will comment on them one by one and that will take a while. I am not a very good expert on the subject, so don't take my comments as the truth but as an opinion.
As for the general lack of information, I think that shibriyas were not valued because they were primitive relative to other weapons from the surrounding areas (Syria for example), were low-grade workmanship and relatively recent. However, at least up to 1960, they were made mainly for local use and were carried by local tribesmen as well as by the soldiers of the Arab Legion. Even today, some bedouin wear them for festive or official occasions (like my good friend A'wad from the Azazme). Therefore, they are authentic ethnographic weapons and deserve at least some recognition. As for their use, they are definately weapons and not utility knifes (despite claims of the opposite) simply because they are shaped like pure stabbing weapons and are not much good for anything else. Like all Middle Eastern daggers, they are also man's juwelry and a symbol of manhood.

No. 1-Definately the oldest of the lot. Probably made in Jordan where the majority of shibriyas were made. This shape of pommel is known, but not very common. The long and relatively narrow blade is a sign of older ones (thanks Artzi). I would say it is from the late 1920's or from the 1930's. In pic 1 and 2, I show similar ones
No. 2-The most difficult to place and date for me. The style bears resemblance to a known type shown in pic 3. I believe that this one (as well as my example) are the only ones of the lot of Palestinian origin. I base this on the style of decoration on the scabbard which is definately Palestinian. The age is difficult to gues because I recognize stages only in the more common Jordanian types.
The rest tommorow. Eytan

ariel · 29th January 2017, 02:41 AM

There is a guy in Latvia named Denis Cherevichnik who is into history of knife fights around the world ( he even wrote a big book about it with deep analysis of literally hundreds of historical sources in several languages and spanning several centuries).

He published an article ( in Russian, unfortunately for most of the Forumites) about Sica, a dog-leg curved Roman ( or Dacian) dagger. To make the long story short, he makes connection between Sica and Shibria. Indeed, they look virtually identical. Whether it is a case of parallel development or of some atavistic feature is uncertain, but the idea is intriguing.

A.alnakkas · 29th January 2017, 06:13 AM

This may be weaker than a hypothesis, but upon examining shibriya blades, I always get the impression that it is a crude imitation of the khanjar curve that eventually gave way to this type.

Miguel · 29th January 2017, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

This may be weaker than a hypothesis, but upon examining shibriya blades, I always get the impression that it is a crude imitation of the khanjar curve that eventually gave way to this type.

I can see where you are coming from as the same thoughts had occurred to me but I'm not at all certain that this is the case. Incidentally does any of the script on the blades of No`s 3 & 5 make any sense to you.

Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 29th January 2017, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

There is a guy in Latvia named Denis Cherevichnik who is into history of knife fights around the world ( he even wrote a big book about it with deep analysis of literally hundreds of historical sources in several languages and spanning several centuries).

He published an article ( in Russian, unfortunately for most of the Forumites) about Sica, a dog-leg curved Roman ( or Dacian) dagger. To make the long story short, he makes connection between Sica and Shibria. Indeed, they look virtually identical. Whether it is a case of parallel development or of some atavistic feature is uncertain, but the idea is intriguing.

Hello Ariel, Interesting idea worth looking into.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 29th January 2017, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hi Miguel, Thanks for asking. I will comment on them one by one and that will take a while. I am not a very good expert on the subject, so don't take my comments as the truth but as an opinion.
As for the general lack of information, I think that shibriyas were not valued because they were primitive relative to other weapons from the surrounding areas (Syria for example), were low-grade workmanship and relatively recent. However, at least up to 1960, they were made mainly for local use and were carried by local tribesmen as well as by the soldiers of the Arab Legion. Even today, some bedouin wear them for festive or official occasions (like my good friend A'wad from the Azazme). Therefore, they are authentic ethnographic weapons and deserve at least some recognition. As for their use, they are definately weapons and not utility knifes (despite claims of the opposite) simply because they are shaped like pure stabbing weapons and are not much good for anything else. Like all Middle Eastern daggers, they are also man's juwelry and a symbol of manhood.

No. 1-Definately the oldest of the lot. Probably made in Jordan where the majority of shibriyas were made. This shape of pommel is known, but not very common. The long and relatively narrow blade is a sign of older ones (thanks Artzi). I would say it is from the late 1920's or from the 1930's. In
pic 1 and 2, I show similar ones
No. 2-The most difficult to place and date for me. The style bears resemblance to a known type shown in pic 3. I believe that this one (as well as my example) are the only ones of the lot of Palestinian origin. I base this on the style of decoration on the scabbard which is definately Palestinian. The age is difficult to gues because I recognize stages only in the more common Jordanian types.
The rest tommorow. Eytan

Hello Motan, Thank you for your interesting and enlightening comments and look forward to reading the rest when you have the time. One thing I should point out is that the pics are not in the order I posted them as they seem to have gotten mixed up. The first set of 3 pics is No 2 of my script, the second set is No 1, the third set is No 4, the fourth set is No 3 and the fith set of four pics is correct. I apologise for the mix up but I don't know how it happened.
Regards
Miguel

Sajen · 29th January 2017, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

I apologise for the mix up but I don't know how it happened.

Hi Miguel,

when you load up every picture separate the come in the order you wish!

Regards,
Detlef

motan · 29th January 2017, 10:32 PM

Hi all,
Thanks for all your comments. I didn't expect this thread to raise much interest, but I am happy to be wrong.
Ariel, your theory is the stuff of legends..but that is what I think it is. There is so much time between the Romans and WWI and so little evidence that I don't think it is plausible. Re-curve blades are found mainly in Indian weapons, like Khanjarli and they are more likely source of inspiration. Perhaps the need to make those pointy dog-leg daggers into more effective stabbing weapons lead the smiths to turn the point forward in line with the hilt? Who knows.
Early photos of bedouins show many swords, but few daggers. Perhaps the popularity of daggers was caused by a change in the way of fighting. A sword is cumbersome for a dismounted fighter with a modern rifle as main weapon.
Miguel, nevermind the mixup in the photos. The order works fine for me and I will keep it.
The last group of 3 shibriyas are all one family. This type was made in large quantities between the early 1940's and the early 1960' in workshops around Amman, Jordan. These are the most typical and well known types of shibriya. What I say is not speculation because many are dated and signed. Number 4 in the current order is dated to 1370 Hijri date, about 1951, and number 5 is date to 1955 in arabic numbers and Gregorian date. Hijri dates are quite uncommon. Most have Gregorian dates. This is true for all dated daggers from the region after the end of Ottoman rule. It could be because of the souvenier trade, or maybe because they started to use Gregorian dates for daily purposes.
No 3 looks a bit older and has a less common pommel shape. The flat, straight-end pommel of 4 and 5 is the most common for the 1950' and early 60'. You can see the similarity of the simple decoration between 3 and 4, especially on the hilt. The multiple wire decorations on the scabbard, the little rings in 5, the gold color decorations on the hilt of 4 and the coin IMPRESSIONS are all recurrent elements of the period. These impressions were made by laying the metal sheet over the coin and pressing with softer material such as wood. Iraqi coins were most popular and this one in 5 could be of king Ghazi/Faisal of Iraq who ruled from 1933 to 1939. A possible candidate is this silver 20 Fils from 1938. I don't read Arabic, but I could ask someone to read and translate the writing. Lastly, the circle with writing on the blade, as well images of pigeons indicate Jordenian origin, even on early pieces like the beatiful example in picture 2.

Miguel · 2nd February 2017, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Miguel,

when you load up every picture separate the come in the order you wish!

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef, I am sorry for the delayed reply but I missed your post completely till now. Wished I had seen it sooner as I have just made the same mistake again

I will remember next time. Thanks for pointing it out.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 29th January 2017, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Miguel,
I would be interested to know what the coin is on your shibriya no.5.
Regards
Richard

Hello Richard, I don't honestly know what the coin is but will try to find out.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 30th January 2017, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Miguel,
I would be interested to know what the coin is on your shibriya no.5.
Regards
Richard

Hi Richard,

Eyetan has kindly answered your question in his latest reply.
Regards
Miguel

Richard G · 1st February 2017, 07:07 PM

Yes, and it all makes sense.
Thank you Miguel and Eytan.
Best wishes
Richard

kahnjar1 · 2nd February 2017, 08:43 AM

Here is a link to another early example, sadly no longer with me.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=shibriya

motan · 2nd February 2017, 01:09 PM

Thanks Stuart for posting this link.
Previosly in this thread, I suggested that shibriyas with the characteristic recurve blade developed out of similar daggers with dog-leg blade around WWI. The shibriya in Stuart's link is from around that time (the seals connected are 1902 and 1914) and has an intermediate blade shape. Therefore, it could be seen as a kind of missing link between dog-leg and re-curve blades. I know reality is more complex than that, but still..

28th January 2017, 03:37 PM	#1
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Another Shibriya Hello Motan, I would like to thank you for posting this interesting thread about Shibriyas. I have a few in my collection and have never really been able to find out much detail about them such as age, which particular tribes carried them, are they a general purpose or fighting weapon or both, where did the design originate from etc etc.? I don't understand why there is so little information about them it would appear that have been under the radar or the experts have not thought them worthy enough to study, I personally find them a very interesting and deadly weapon having its own unique shape. Having searched through my own reference books the only one which mentioned this dagger was Elgood`s Arms and Armour of Arabia and this was only quoting someone else who had commented that some tribes in northern Arabia carried a short, narrow knife. The knife being a shibriya and a tribe called Rwala all very vague and no illustrations or photos despite there being dozens of Jambiya and Khanjar illustrations, why none of the Shibriya, I don't understand. I have taken the liberty of showing some pics of my Shimbriyas and would be grateful for your comments as I know next to nothing about them. Their O/Ls without scabbard vary between 11 and 11.75 ins. No 1:- Very plain but I feel it to be an old one? No 2:- Still very plain with some decoration on the hilt. Again I have a feeling that this may be an old one. I think that the pommel is also interesting having not seen one on other Shimbriyas. No 3:- this is more decorative and modern having the date of 1370 AH on the blade which I think equates to 1950/51 AD. No 4:- Again more decorative and modern possibly similar date to No 3? No 5:- Very decorative with the date 1900? on the blade. I am not sure if this is a date or something else as the style seems to be more modern. Attached Images

28th January 2017, 03:41 PM	#2
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Shabriya N0 5. Attached Images

28th January 2017, 11:01 PM	#4
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Comments Hi Miguel, Thanks for asking. I will comment on them one by one and that will take a while. I am not a very good expert on the subject, so don't take my comments as the truth but as an opinion. As for the general lack of information, I think that shibriyas were not valued because they were primitive relative to other weapons from the surrounding areas (Syria for example), were low-grade workmanship and relatively recent. However, at least up to 1960, they were made mainly for local use and were carried by local tribesmen as well as by the soldiers of the Arab Legion. Even today, some bedouin wear them for festive or official occasions (like my good friend A'wad from the Azazme). Therefore, they are authentic ethnographic weapons and deserve at least some recognition. As for their use, they are definately weapons and not utility knifes (despite claims of the opposite) simply because they are shaped like pure stabbing weapons and are not much good for anything else. Like all Middle Eastern daggers, they are also man's juwelry and a symbol of manhood. No. 1-Definately the oldest of the lot. Probably made in Jordan where the majority of shibriyas were made. This shape of pommel is known, but not very common. The long and relatively narrow blade is a sign of older ones (thanks Artzi). I would say it is from the late 1920's or from the 1930's. In pic 1 and 2, I show similar ones No. 2-The most difficult to place and date for me. The style bears resemblance to a known type shown in pic 3. I believe that this one (as well as my example) are the only ones of the lot of Palestinian origin. I base this on the style of decoration on the scabbard which is definately Palestinian. The age is difficult to gues because I recognize stages only in the more common Jordanian types. The rest tommorow. Eytan Attached Images

29th January 2017, 10:32 PM	#11
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi all, Thanks for all your comments. I didn't expect this thread to raise much interest, but I am happy to be wrong. Ariel, your theory is the stuff of legends..but that is what I think it is. There is so much time between the Romans and WWI and so little evidence that I don't think it is plausible. Re-curve blades are found mainly in Indian weapons, like Khanjarli and they are more likely source of inspiration. Perhaps the need to make those pointy dog-leg daggers into more effective stabbing weapons lead the smiths to turn the point forward in line with the hilt? Who knows. Early photos of bedouins show many swords, but few daggers. Perhaps the popularity of daggers was caused by a change in the way of fighting. A sword is cumbersome for a dismounted fighter with a modern rifle as main weapon. Miguel, nevermind the mixup in the photos. The order works fine for me and I will keep it. The last group of 3 shibriyas are all one family. This type was made in large quantities between the early 1940's and the early 1960' in workshops around Amman, Jordan. These are the most typical and well known types of shibriya. What I say is not speculation because many are dated and signed. Number 4 in the current order is dated to 1370 Hijri date, about 1951, and number 5 is date to 1955 in arabic numbers and Gregorian date. Hijri dates are quite uncommon. Most have Gregorian dates. This is true for all dated daggers from the region after the end of Ottoman rule. It could be because of the souvenier trade, or maybe because they started to use Gregorian dates for daily purposes. No 3 looks a bit older and has a less common pommel shape. The flat, straight-end pommel of 4 and 5 is the most common for the 1950' and early 60'. You can see the similarity of the simple decoration between 3 and 4, especially on the hilt. The multiple wire decorations on the scabbard, the little rings in 5, the gold color decorations on the hilt of 4 and the coin IMPRESSIONS are all recurrent elements of the period. These impressions were made by laying the metal sheet over the coin and pressing with softer material such as wood. Iraqi coins were most popular and this one in 5 could be of king Ghazi/Faisal of Iraq who ruled from 1933 to 1939. A possible candidate is this silver 20 Fils from 1938. I don't read Arabic, but I could ask someone to read and translate the writing. Lastly, the circle with writing on the blade, as well images of pigeons indicate Jordenian origin, even on early pieces like the beatiful example in picture 2. Attached Images

2nd February 2017, 01:09 PM	#17
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	The missing link? Thanks Stuart for posting this link. Previosly in this thread, I suggested that shibriyas with the characteristic recurve blade developed out of similar daggers with dog-leg blade around WWI. The shibriya in Stuart's link is from around that time (the seals connected are 1902 and 1914) and has an intermediate blade shape. Therefore, it could be seen as a kind of missing link between dog-leg and re-curve blades. I know reality is more complex than that, but still..

28th January 2017, 07:37 PM	#3
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	Miguel, I would be interested to know what the coin is on your shibriya no.5. Regards Richard

29th January 2017, 02:41 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is a guy in Latvia named Denis Cherevichnik who is into history of knife fights around the world ( he even wrote a big book about it with deep analysis of literally hundreds of historical sources in several languages and spanning several centuries). He published an article ( in Russian, unfortunately for most of the Forumites) about Sica, a dog-leg curved Roman ( or Dacian) dagger. To make the long story short, he makes connection between Sica and Shibria. Indeed, they look virtually identical. Whether it is a case of parallel development or of some atavistic feature is uncertain, but the idea is intriguing.

29th January 2017, 06:13 AM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	This may be weaker than a hypothesis, but upon examining shibriya blades, I always get the impression that it is a crude imitation of the khanjar curve that eventually gave way to this type.

1st February 2017, 07:07 PM	#15
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	Yes, and it all makes sense. Thank you Miguel and Eytan. Best wishes Richard

2nd February 2017, 08:43 AM	#16
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,809	Here is a link to another early example, sadly no longer with me. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=shibriya