The flowers on the tulwar hilts

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2017, 04:50 PM

Ibrahim,
Yes you are right, this rally is a very complex subject, with few conclusions, but a lot of guessing, as that is mostly what we can do.
Maybe we should try to take an interest in what Markel writes, and also start to study Indian jewellery, as part of the answer may lay there.

Jim,
I know you use hours with your books when you take an interest in a subject, and the members benefit from your studies very much. I think you have a very good point in turning to other sources, as the development of the decoration may be in a place, where weapon collectors seldom look for an answer.

Richard,
Yes it is years ago since we discussed the subject, and I have done little to research it since then, as I have had other researches going on.

I have come to the conclusion, that I am not going to survive my research list, so to speed the research up a bit I will ask the members to start their own research, and tell us about it.
When showing a picture of a decoration, please tell what you have learned from looking at it, or what you have read about it, how old it is, and where it was used - north or south.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th January 2017, 08:44 PM

Salaams Jim, Brilliant post and clearly there are hours of research behind this detailed response...I had to look up Leitmotif!

which it states is a recurrent theme throughout a musical or literary composition, associated with a particular person, idea, or situation. Thus I see clearly its use on this decorative form as being present in the orchestra of decoration on everything Indian. I was looking through two decades old Sothebys catalogs and discovered the floral spread on Indian Carpets and even on the fittings on Hookah pipes. Indian Architecture is of course awash with such splendid decoration. It stands to reason that Indian Arms and Armour is laced with the complex floral designs.
I hope someone can provide the details I requested earlier but I will make the request again here..

Does anyone have a copy of Stephan Markels , "Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" It would be useful to have this document transferred here for library purposes. I cannot get it to download...

I believe this will create the foundation framework so that we can get closer to the answer. Clearly Jim has provided huge clues from this document so that having the whole thesis to hand may well be a bonus to Library.

Regards,
Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th January 2017, 04:02 PM

Ibrahim,
Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th January 2017, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahim,
Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

Thank you but that is the web page I have been drumming on for weeks trying to break into it so I can place its details on Library...even though it is 11 pages. ..I cannot download it ..though I have it cornered and try all the time to access I just cannot crack it... Anyone who can get into it please simply copy to Library...on this thread.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th January 2017, 01:02 PM

Ibrahiim,
Have you read the rules for downloading files from their homepage?

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2017, 07:24 PM

Jens, can you link this article?
I know Ibrahiim has had some computer issues, and my scanner is on the blink.
Thanks a lot,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 29th January 2017, 09:18 PM

Jim,
Yes I could, but I wont. I have given the link, so that each member can have a look at the article, and that must be enough.
Did you read the rules about copyrights?
Copyright is a world wide thing - but in a way it is also a gentleman agreement, and that is why I will no download it.

25th January 2017, 04:50 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahim, Yes you are right, this rally is a very complex subject, with few conclusions, but a lot of guessing, as that is mostly what we can do. Maybe we should try to take an interest in what Markel writes, and also start to study Indian jewellery, as part of the answer may lay there. Jim, I know you use hours with your books when you take an interest in a subject, and the members benefit from your studies very much. I think you have a very good point in turning to other sources, as the development of the decoration may be in a place, where weapon collectors seldom look for an answer. Richard, Yes it is years ago since we discussed the subject, and I have done little to research it since then, as I have had other researches going on. I have come to the conclusion, that I am not going to survive my research list, so to speed the research up a bit I will ask the members to start their own research, and tell us about it. When showing a picture of a decoration, please tell what you have learned from looking at it, or what you have read about it, how old it is, and where it was used - north or south.

25th January 2017, 08:44 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Jim, Brilliant post and clearly there are hours of research behind this detailed response...I had to look up Leitmotif! which it states is a recurrent theme throughout a musical or literary composition, associated with a particular person, idea, or situation. Thus I see clearly its use on this decorative form as being present in the orchestra of decoration on everything Indian. I was looking through two decades old Sothebys catalogs and discovered the floral spread on Indian Carpets and even on the fittings on Hookah pipes. Indian Architecture is of course awash with such splendid decoration. It stands to reason that Indian Arms and Armour is laced with the complex floral designs. I hope someone can provide the details I requested earlier but I will make the request again here.. Does anyone have a copy of Stephan Markels , "Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" It would be useful to have this document transferred here for library purposes. I cannot get it to download... I believe this will create the foundation framework so that we can get closer to the answer. Clearly Jim has provided huge clues from this document so that having the whole thesis to hand may well be a bonus to Library. Regards, Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

27th January 2017, 04:02 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahim, Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

29th January 2017, 01:02 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahiim, Have you read the rules for downloading files from their homepage?

29th January 2017, 07:24 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Jens, can you link this article? I know Ibrahiim has had some computer issues, and my scanner is on the blink. Thanks a lot, Jim

29th January 2017, 09:18 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim, Yes I could, but I wont. I have given the link, so that each member can have a look at the article, and that must be enough. Did you read the rules about copyrights? Copyright is a world wide thing - but in a way it is also a gentleman agreement, and that is why I will no download it.