The flowers on the tulwar hilts

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd January 2017, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, thank you for the detailed information and excerpts on the possible talismanic aspects of the decoration on these weapons. It really gives us a lot to consider!
While much of what we are looking into involves the Mughal decoration of tulwar hilts, clearly the links to Hindu imagery play an important part in the development of many of these motifs.

I think the capture and execution of Dara Shikoh was more a result of the typical power struggle between the heirs for control from the standing emperor than differences in idealogy. The fact that Dara Shikoh was quite liberal compared to his younger brother Jahangir and as noted, was deeply involved in mysticism was however a notable circumstance. Elgood explains (p.135, "Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004) that with the forces under these rulers, "...the ideological battle between Islam and Hinduism had limited relevance as mercenaries served either side".

In his book, Elgood explains also that flowers and plants indeed had both certain talismanic as well as dynastic significance in the early Hindu kingdoms and of course Faith. He states (p.129) that "...it follows that a plant depicted on a weapon is likely to represent more than its decorative value"
Further, that there were nine species of plant associated with the warrior goddess Durga, and the "...red flower is used for good and evil for charms and incantations on the one hand, and for witchcraft and spells on the other".

The exposure with European contact certainly rang true with respect to the various volumes of botanical lore and art known as herbals, as "...the Indians, like the Victorians (much later) had a very precise language of trees and plants and though there are regional differences, plants had a pan Indian value" (p.129).

Also noted is the sweet basil plant called tulsi (ocimum sanctum) associated with Vishnu, and referred to as 'bhutagni' (=killer of demons). Evil spirits including the god of death, Yama, are driven away by this plant, and its leaves often worn in the turban by Rajput and other warriors (p.144).

Salaams Jim, Once again I refer to your notes and on the inclusion of the Durga which must be one of the top echelon Deities in Hindu circles. The statue of Durga is often displayed with a huge group of weapons held by the deity which includes The Lotus. Clearly floral association with weapons is at play here...and as you point out other linkages are apparent across the spectrum of floral tributes...

Daro Shikoh must have considered this famous Deity in his Mystical studies and it becomes clearer how he looked at fusing two religions with floral and Calligraphic decoration; Hinduism and Islam. Unfortunately instead of taking over the Mughal dynasty he was judged a Heretic and died because of it.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd January 2017, 10:51 PM

Below some renditions of the famous Deity; Gurda.. In one the clear group of weapons and with one described as The Lotus. Interesting that the main weapon appears as a Tulvar. In the marble figure a Lotus held in one hand...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th January 2017, 12:11 AM

To remind and revise here are some additional items displaying Hindu floral work. It is clear that not only hilts were decorated with floral work but blades, scabbards as well as other weapons thus shields daggers et al were thus endowed. This then is very much key to Hindu style although Hindu script and Islamic form with Calligraphy and geometry were incorporated..

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2017, 04:50 PM

Notes from Markel (1999, p.31):
During the Mughal regnal; " ...weapon hilts were also designed with floral and or vegetal forms, either adorned with raised or inlaid poppy plants or other flowers or terminating in floral shapes. Single buds were the most favored terminals, such as those used in the end of the knuckleguard and butt of a floral decorated late 17th c. jade sword hilt made to smaller scale for a young prince.
Occasionally multiple blossoms were used as terminals, such as represented on a jade dagger hilt from about 1700-1750 that features three buds inlaid with gemstones.
Not only did Mughal artists create new weapon hilt and vessel forms but they also modified forms from Islamic and/or Hindu design traditions with flora and fauna motifs that 'Mughalized' the pre existing forms appropriate for their desired imagery."

Further, Markel describes a ewer that has been dramatically 'Mughalized' with numerous depictions of POPPY blossoms, which since the time of the pleasure loving Jahangir served in effect as the STATE FLOWER OF THE MUGHALS.

In Elgood (2004, p.130) he describes "...the three royal families of the Tamils in antiquity known collectively as the Mu Ventor, or three kings, and were the Chera, Chola and Pandya.
The first had as its emblem the large white flower of the Palmyra palm (borassus flabelleifer); the second the at or atti common mountain ebony (bauhinia racemosa) and the third the dark branches of margosa (arya veppu)."
The dynastic flower symbols were later replaced by varied animal symbolism.

It seems that flowers as dynastic leitmotif in Hindu convention was replaced as noted by various animal and other symbolism, but the floral and vegetal dynamics were profoundly represented in Hindu metaphysical and talismanic auspicious representations throughout their tradition.

While the Mughals did largely regard many aspects of these Hindu traditions as heretical in varying degree, it does seem that Akbar was intrigued by Indian 'magic', as many of these holdings were regarded. The reputation of 'Indian magic' was in fact well known from antiquity into European cultures.
It would be interesting to know just how much occult and arcane symbolism in the European herbals which became so fascinating to the Mughals might have had origin in India in the first place.

It does not seem that unusual that Dara Shikoh had become keenly involved in the mystical properties of these herbals, and ironically his fascination was well represented with his forebearers as well. His capture and execution by his religiously conservative brother was more a power play with these mystical fascinations simply impetus to implicate him as a heretic.

In much decoration in Indian hilts, the auspicious and talismanic properties of not only animal totemism, but apotropaic properties of precious stones, metals and features such as architectural design are incorporated.
With these motif the Mughals created designs which brought in their own 'Arabesques' of geometric fashion together with these various floral patterns along with these other key elements.

It would seem that the concept of floral symbolism as a dynastic leitmotif with the Mughals had much more ancient origin in the Hindu culture, but clearly served the Mughal purpose well with their Gardens of Paradise theme.

This is a very complex and difficult topic, and it has taken many hours to try to formulate these thoughts, which I hope make at least some sense.
Jens has done the arms collecting community a great service with his gift of a magnificent volume sharing his many years of collecting and study on Indian arms. He has asked for us to join him in seeking more answers on these deeply esoteric topics, and myself and Ibrahiim have joined him in this discussion in hopes that others too may also participate.

I know there are many collectors out there who have in varying degree included Indian arms in their collections. I would ask that they bring out examples that we might examine and discuss the floral motif found, so that we can build the knowledge base on this important topic.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th January 2017, 09:38 PM

Very good Jim, and to each of the collectors who is willing to show pictures - please comment each picture in your own words.
It is nice to see pictures, but if they are not commented, part of it is missed.

Pukka Bundook · 25th January 2017, 03:28 PM

Very well put together Jim, and I can tell you have spent a great deal on time on this reply!
Jens,
This is such a deep subject, and time has been too short to comment in depth. No, it is not that I know much, (!) but a comment or two without much thought would not be helpful either, so I have refrained.
I do however find this topic very interesting, and too much of the culture and history of Indian arms has remained in a very murky state for far too long.
It is a long time since we discussed this subject ourselves, and I do want to get back to it. My problem at present is life is rife with "must do now" type things that I unfortunately cannot put off.
Hopefully things will soon settle down, so I can draw up my chair and collect my thoughts and join in !!

Very best,
Richard.

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2017, 04:33 PM

Thank you so much Richard!!! and its fantastic to have you here on this, as you note, very complicated topic. You have been steadily with us over these years of study, and your contributions to our learning have been outstanding. Really looking forward to your joining us on this!!!

All best wishes
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2017, 04:50 PM

Ibrahim,
Yes you are right, this rally is a very complex subject, with few conclusions, but a lot of guessing, as that is mostly what we can do.
Maybe we should try to take an interest in what Markel writes, and also start to study Indian jewellery, as part of the answer may lay there.

Jim,
I know you use hours with your books when you take an interest in a subject, and the members benefit from your studies very much. I think you have a very good point in turning to other sources, as the development of the decoration may be in a place, where weapon collectors seldom look for an answer.

Richard,
Yes it is years ago since we discussed the subject, and I have done little to research it since then, as I have had other researches going on.

I have come to the conclusion, that I am not going to survive my research list, so to speed the research up a bit I will ask the members to start their own research, and tell us about it.
When showing a picture of a decoration, please tell what you have learned from looking at it, or what you have read about it, how old it is, and where it was used - north or south.

23rd January 2017, 10:51 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Below some renditions of the famous Deity; Gurda.. In one the clear group of weapons and with one described as The Lotus. Interesting that the main weapon appears as a Tulvar. In the marble figure a Lotus held in one hand... Attached Images

24th January 2017, 12:11 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	To remind and revise here are some additional items displaying Hindu floral work. It is clear that not only hilts were decorated with floral work but blades, scabbards as well as other weapons thus shields daggers et al were thus endowed. This then is very much key to Hindu style although Hindu script and Islamic form with Calligraphy and geometry were incorporated.. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 24th January 2017 at 12:22 AM.

24th January 2017, 04:50 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Notes from Markel (1999, p.31): During the Mughal regnal; " ...weapon hilts were also designed with floral and or vegetal forms, either adorned with raised or inlaid poppy plants or other flowers or terminating in floral shapes. Single buds were the most favored terminals, such as those used in the end of the knuckleguard and butt of a floral decorated late 17th c. jade sword hilt made to smaller scale for a young prince. Occasionally multiple blossoms were used as terminals, such as represented on a jade dagger hilt from about 1700-1750 that features three buds inlaid with gemstones. Not only did Mughal artists create new weapon hilt and vessel forms but they also modified forms from Islamic and/or Hindu design traditions with flora and fauna motifs that 'Mughalized' the pre existing forms appropriate for their desired imagery." Further, Markel describes a ewer that has been dramatically 'Mughalized' with numerous depictions of POPPY blossoms, which since the time of the pleasure loving Jahangir served in effect as the STATE FLOWER OF THE MUGHALS. In Elgood (2004, p.130) he describes "...the three royal families of the Tamils in antiquity known collectively as the Mu Ventor, or three kings, and were the Chera, Chola and Pandya. The first had as its emblem the large white flower of the Palmyra palm (borassus flabelleifer); the second the at or atti common mountain ebony (bauhinia racemosa) and the third the dark branches of margosa (arya veppu)." The dynastic flower symbols were later replaced by varied animal symbolism. It seems that flowers as dynastic leitmotif in Hindu convention was replaced as noted by various animal and other symbolism, but the floral and vegetal dynamics were profoundly represented in Hindu metaphysical and talismanic auspicious representations throughout their tradition. While the Mughals did largely regard many aspects of these Hindu traditions as heretical in varying degree, it does seem that Akbar was intrigued by Indian 'magic', as many of these holdings were regarded. The reputation of 'Indian magic' was in fact well known from antiquity into European cultures. It would be interesting to know just how much occult and arcane symbolism in the European herbals which became so fascinating to the Mughals might have had origin in India in the first place. It does not seem that unusual that Dara Shikoh had become keenly involved in the mystical properties of these herbals, and ironically his fascination was well represented with his forebearers as well. His capture and execution by his religiously conservative brother was more a power play with these mystical fascinations simply impetus to implicate him as a heretic. In much decoration in Indian hilts, the auspicious and talismanic properties of not only animal totemism, but apotropaic properties of precious stones, metals and features such as architectural design are incorporated. With these motif the Mughals created designs which brought in their own 'Arabesques' of geometric fashion together with these various floral patterns along with these other key elements. It would seem that the concept of floral symbolism as a dynastic leitmotif with the Mughals had much more ancient origin in the Hindu culture, but clearly served the Mughal purpose well with their Gardens of Paradise theme. This is a very complex and difficult topic, and it has taken many hours to try to formulate these thoughts, which I hope make at least some sense. Jens has done the arms collecting community a great service with his gift of a magnificent volume sharing his many years of collecting and study on Indian arms. He has asked for us to join him in seeking more answers on these deeply esoteric topics, and myself and Ibrahiim have joined him in this discussion in hopes that others too may also participate. I know there are many collectors out there who have in varying degree included Indian arms in their collections. I would ask that they bring out examples that we might examine and discuss the floral motif found, so that we can build the knowledge base on this important topic.

24th January 2017, 09:38 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Very good Jim, and to each of the collectors who is willing to show pictures - please comment each picture in your own words. It is nice to see pictures, but if they are not commented, part of it is missed.

25th January 2017, 03:28 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Very well put together Jim, and I can tell you have spent a great deal on time on this reply! Jens, This is such a deep subject, and time has been too short to comment in depth. No, it is not that I know much, (!) but a comment or two without much thought would not be helpful either, so I have refrained. I do however find this topic very interesting, and too much of the culture and history of Indian arms has remained in a very murky state for far too long. It is a long time since we discussed this subject ourselves, and I do want to get back to it. My problem at present is life is rife with "must do now" type things that I unfortunately cannot put off. Hopefully things will soon settle down, so I can draw up my chair and collect my thoughts and join in !! Very best, Richard.

25th January 2017, 04:33 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Thank you so much Richard!!! and its fantastic to have you here on this, as you note, very complicated topic. You have been steadily with us over these years of study, and your contributions to our learning have been outstanding. Really looking forward to your joining us on this!!! All best wishes Jim

25th January 2017, 04:50 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahim, Yes you are right, this rally is a very complex subject, with few conclusions, but a lot of guessing, as that is mostly what we can do. Maybe we should try to take an interest in what Markel writes, and also start to study Indian jewellery, as part of the answer may lay there. Jim, I know you use hours with your books when you take an interest in a subject, and the members benefit from your studies very much. I think you have a very good point in turning to other sources, as the development of the decoration may be in a place, where weapon collectors seldom look for an answer. Richard, Yes it is years ago since we discussed the subject, and I have done little to research it since then, as I have had other researches going on. I have come to the conclusion, that I am not going to survive my research list, so to speed the research up a bit I will ask the members to start their own research, and tell us about it. When showing a picture of a decoration, please tell what you have learned from looking at it, or what you have read about it, how old it is, and where it was used - north or south.