Older Toledo? Blade, Makers Marks I.D.

Norman McCormick · 14th January 2017, 07:08 PM

Jim, Fernando, Ibrahiim and Jasper,
Many thanks guys for your interest and invaluable insight. I have a couple more, unusual to me, items which I think will be of interest and I look forward to your views on these. Thanks agains chaps

Kind Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 31st January 2017, 02:02 AM

Hi Norman,
While I think we have pretty much resolved this is a very old German blade, the mounts and Masonic symbolism on this piece are fascinating, and even more so with the deep esoterica of these fraternal regalia swords.

I found some interesting information regarding the cross guard on this hilt, which may well be of composite elements, just as the refurbishing of this old blade to the hilt itself. The neo classic pommel of latter 18th may be from a regulation military dress sword, but does not go with the cross guard.

The trilobate quillon terminal shape is termed 'botonee' and a form used on 'Tyler' swords . One of these with these 'cross botonee' pommels and quillon terminals is shown in " Material Culture of the American Freemasons" (John D. Hamilton, 1994, p.155, 4.63) described as a Tylers sword, made by P.Knecht of Solingen, and "...hilted on the Continent for use in a symbolic degree lodge".

While the symbols are different on your sword's guard than those seen on the example in this reference, it does seem important that some of the hilts of this design were produced in Germany. The example in the book is dated c. 1820-35, and the blade notably narrower of course.

In an earlier reference to Tylers swords, Mr. Hamiliton refers to another example of the trilobate pommel and guard decorated with symbols of the symbolic degrees ("Swords of the Masonic Orders", Man at Arms, Vol. 1, #3, May, Jun 1979, p26, John D .Hamilton). The sword described was made by P.Knecht, Solingen sword mfg. 1811-1830 , also very narrow blade.

In Masonic lodges, it was a great honor to have the sword held by the Lodge's Tyler, to have it a venerated battle weapon, or in some cases, the blade of one, remounted in the appropriate regalia hilt. In this case the cross potent, and probably the crown having to do with the Royal Arch (not fully knowing proper symbol for this) likely signify a Templar Lodge.

I would say the hilt crossguard may be from one of the early Knecht hilts, and the blade either trophy or heirloom, put together in the 19th century probably early, and used as a Tyler's sword in a Templar lodge.

Purely speculative deduction, but worth considering.

Norman McCormick · 13th September 2019, 07:23 PM

Hi Guys,
I found this image of an English School 19thC portrait of the Earl of Rosslyn. I don't know if the attribution is absolute but interestingly the sword in the portrait looks like a sibling of the sword I posted.
Regards,
Norman.

Casaubon · 13th September 2019, 07:42 PM

According to Wikipedia, the 2nd Earl of Rosslyn was 'Acting Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Scotland, on behalf of King George IV. '

I assume that's masonic regalia he's wearing in his portrait.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_...arl_of_Rosslyn

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2019, 12:05 AM

Excellent catch Norman!!!
It is always exciting to see portraiture with representation of a sword being studied, and to see these threads remaining active as new information is found.
Presently 'on the move' so resources not handy, but I wanted to make an entry anyway.
The Rosslyn name is highly represented in the complexities of the Masonic lore and this portrait of course clearly is profoundly of Masonic context.

While there was some great discussion here before on this, it will be great to see if we might be able to elaborate more now with this wonderful image.

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2019, 11:47 PM

Still intrigued by this Norman, and the complexities of Freemasonry and the Masons, Knight Templars and all the fraternal and religious organizations and military orders are challenging at best.

While we are assuming this portrait is of the 2nd Earl of Rosslyn, possibly it ay be his son, the 3rd Earl of Rosslyn, Gen. James Alexander St.Clair-Erskine (1802-1866).

It seems that while Freemasonry is notably disconnected from the Knights Templars and other medieval military orders chronologically, in Scotland such orders were never actually abolished or disbanded. They did seem to remain secretly however.
Apparently from 1689 the Scottish Knights Templar became openly known.
In about 1825 they adopted the white mantle and the 'Red Cross of Constantine'.
In 1836 the Supreme Enclave of Knights Templar (Militi Templi Scotia) became removed from Freemasonry and accepted members outside that distinct membership.

Apparently the Rosslyn Chapel, which dates from medieval times, is owned by the Sinclair family as Earls of Rosslyn. In 1842 Queen Victoria expressed dismay at the decay of the structure, and in 1862 restoration was begun by architect David Bryce of Edinburgh, a Freemason.
This was on behalf of James Alexander St.Clair-Erskine, 3rd Earl of Rosslyn.

There has been a great deal of speculation, lore and often fanciful tales of connections between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry and the Rosslyn Chapel, however much of this is discounted by Robert L.D. Cooper, curator of the Grand Lodge Of Scotland museum.

Norman McCormick · 16th September 2019, 06:12 PM

Hi Casaubon.
Thanks for your interest and input.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 16th September 2019, 06:22 PM

Hi Jim,
I have been in touch with the London Museum of Freemasony and I attach part of their reply.

The crown above the cross is an interesting feature, the English Templar orders almost universally have an Imperial Crown, the style on the sword is only used by Mount Calvary Preceptory. The French however use it much more frequently.

Thanks as usual for your valued input and I hope the above might throw a little more light on this piece. Scottish Freemasonary is of course quite distinct in many respects and I hope to pursue that aspect a little more.
My Regards,
Norman.

14th January 2017, 07:08 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Jim, Fernando, Ibrahiim and Jasper, Many thanks guys for your interest and invaluable insight. I have a couple more, unusual to me, items which I think will be of interest and I look forward to your views on these. Thanks agains chaps Kind Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 14th January 2017 at 11:24 PM.

31st January 2017, 02:02 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Hi Norman, While I think we have pretty much resolved this is a very old German blade, the mounts and Masonic symbolism on this piece are fascinating, and even more so with the deep esoterica of these fraternal regalia swords. I found some interesting information regarding the cross guard on this hilt, which may well be of composite elements, just as the refurbishing of this old blade to the hilt itself. The neo classic pommel of latter 18th may be from a regulation military dress sword, but does not go with the cross guard. The trilobate quillon terminal shape is termed 'botonee' and a form used on 'Tyler' swords . One of these with these 'cross botonee' pommels and quillon terminals is shown in " Material Culture of the American Freemasons" (John D. Hamilton, 1994, p.155, 4.63) described as a Tylers sword, made by P.Knecht of Solingen, and "...hilted on the Continent for use in a symbolic degree lodge". While the symbols are different on your sword's guard than those seen on the example in this reference, it does seem important that some of the hilts of this design were produced in Germany. The example in the book is dated c. 1820-35, and the blade notably narrower of course. In an earlier reference to Tylers swords, Mr. Hamiliton refers to another example of the trilobate pommel and guard decorated with symbols of the symbolic degrees ("Swords of the Masonic Orders", Man at Arms, Vol. 1, #3, May, Jun 1979, p26, John D .Hamilton). The sword described was made by P.Knecht, Solingen sword mfg. 1811-1830 , also very narrow blade. In Masonic lodges, it was a great honor to have the sword held by the Lodge's Tyler, to have it a venerated battle weapon, or in some cases, the blade of one, remounted in the appropriate regalia hilt. In this case the cross potent, and probably the crown having to do with the Royal Arch (not fully knowing proper symbol for this) likely signify a Templar Lodge. I would say the hilt crossguard may be from one of the early Knecht hilts, and the blade either trophy or heirloom, put together in the 19th century probably early, and used as a Tyler's sword in a Templar lodge. Purely speculative deduction, but worth considering.

13th September 2019, 07:23 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Guys, I found this image of an English School 19thC portrait of the Earl of Rosslyn. I don't know if the attribution is absolute but interestingly the sword in the portrait looks like a sibling of the sword I posted. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

13th September 2019, 07:42 PM	#4
Casaubon Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 2	According to Wikipedia, the 2nd Earl of Rosslyn was 'Acting Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Scotland, on behalf of King George IV. ' I assume that's masonic regalia he's wearing in his portrait. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_...arl_of_Rosslyn

14th September 2019, 12:05 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Excellent catch Norman!!! It is always exciting to see portraiture with representation of a sword being studied, and to see these threads remaining active as new information is found. Presently 'on the move' so resources not handy, but I wanted to make an entry anyway. The Rosslyn name is highly represented in the complexities of the Masonic lore and this portrait of course clearly is profoundly of Masonic context. While there was some great discussion here before on this, it will be great to see if we might be able to elaborate more now with this wonderful image.

14th September 2019, 11:47 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Still intrigued by this Norman, and the complexities of Freemasonry and the Masons, Knight Templars and all the fraternal and religious organizations and military orders are challenging at best. While we are assuming this portrait is of the 2nd Earl of Rosslyn, possibly it ay be his son, the 3rd Earl of Rosslyn, Gen. James Alexander St.Clair-Erskine (1802-1866). It seems that while Freemasonry is notably disconnected from the Knights Templars and other medieval military orders chronologically, in Scotland such orders were never actually abolished or disbanded. They did seem to remain secretly however. Apparently from 1689 the Scottish Knights Templar became openly known. In about 1825 they adopted the white mantle and the 'Red Cross of Constantine'. In 1836 the Supreme Enclave of Knights Templar (Militi Templi Scotia) became removed from Freemasonry and accepted members outside that distinct membership. Apparently the Rosslyn Chapel, which dates from medieval times, is owned by the Sinclair family as Earls of Rosslyn. In 1842 Queen Victoria expressed dismay at the decay of the structure, and in 1862 restoration was begun by architect David Bryce of Edinburgh, a Freemason. This was on behalf of James Alexander St.Clair-Erskine, 3rd Earl of Rosslyn. There has been a great deal of speculation, lore and often fanciful tales of connections between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry and the Rosslyn Chapel, however much of this is discounted by Robert L.D. Cooper, curator of the Grand Lodge Of Scotland museum.

16th September 2019, 06:12 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Casaubon. Thanks for your interest and input. My Regards, Norman.

16th September 2019, 06:22 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Jim, I have been in touch with the London Museum of Freemasony and I attach part of their reply. The crown above the cross is an interesting feature, the English Templar orders almost universally have an Imperial Crown, the style on the sword is only used by Mount Calvary Preceptory. The French however use it much more frequently. Thanks as usual for your valued input and I hope the above might throw a little more light on this piece. Scottish Freemasonary is of course quite distinct in many respects and I hope to pursue that aspect a little more. My Regards, Norman.