Kris with a repaired ganya?

Green · 12th January 2017, 02:25 PM

Many thanks Kai for the comments and explanations.

If there ever was a pan Moro conf in 1920s that wouldn't last for more than ten minutes as I'd guess they'd start slashing each other with various sub species of kris before they even began discussing separate or integral ganya.

I'll try to give more info when I recieve the 'new' toy and it may take sometimes if the custom people get into their head to witheld it before I get the permit ready.

As to the dimension the seller put it at 67cm (26.25 inches) and weight 1 kg.

Nik

Battara · 13th January 2017, 01:05 AM

So far I will agree that this is not a separate ganga, and that this is Sulu.

Based on the style of okir, ron do at the back of the ganga, and the way the blade as made just before the ganga, I would even place this in the 1960s. I have seen and even owned one just like this with provenance of the 1960s.

Kai, I would like to see your research and references regarding the Mindanao production of early kris without separate gangas.

David · 13th January 2017, 03:14 AM

While i would agree with Kai that you can indeed find kris pre-1930 that do not have a separate gangya and kris post-1930 that do have separate gangya i will still maintain my position that this kris is at least post-WWII and could, as José has suggested, be as recent as the 1960s. One must always look beyond Cato's "rules" for dating at the approach and quality. Though i have seen numerous post-WWII kris that are wonderfully forged we do see a general decline during this period. Obviously we can also find older kris that are poor quality. So i would say that it is not the quality level per se that helps us date a kris as much as the actual approach and look of that bad execution, if that makes any sense. This looks like a nice effort on a later production kris to my eyes.

Green · 13th January 2017, 11:55 AM

A couple more questions:

here's the other side of scabbard with mother of pearl (?) decoration (two pieces missing. Is this kind of scabbard typical of mid 20th century style and possibly original to the blade ?.

The top part of the scabbard did not have rattan(?) bindings. For a complete scabbard, does the binding continue up or this part is decorated in some other fashion?

kai · 13th January 2017, 06:36 PM

Hello Nik,

Why did you hide this from us?

Quite nice carving!

Quote:

here's the other side of scabbard with mother of pearl (?) decoration (two pieces missing. Is this kind of scabbard typical of mid 20th century style and possibly original to the blade ?.

This scabbard type is 20th century but doesn't help much in narrowing things down for this kris, I guess.

Quote:

The top part of the scabbard did not have rattan(?) bindings. For a complete scabbard, does the binding continue up or this part is decorated in some other fashion?

Judging from the patina of the wood, I'd guess that the rattan was covering it fully.

Regards,
Kai

F. de Luzon · 14th January 2017, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

A couple more questions:

.... The top part of the scabbard did not have rattan(?) bindings. For a complete scabbard, does the binding continue up or this part is decorated in some other fashion?

Hello! What's missing is a piece of cloth wrapped around the top of the sheath just below the crosspiece. I've been told that inside it is a piece of paper inscribed with holy verses. It is meant to serve as a talisman (anting-anting). Attached is an example from my collection showing a similar scabbard with the wrapping.

F de Luzon

F. de Luzon · 15th January 2017, 01:06 AM

The cloth also serves a practical purpose. It can protect your hand from injury.

The two sides of the scabbard are made of thin pieces of wood, bound together by rattan/nito vine. Over time, the rattan/nito becomes frail and can easily break when the sword is drawn. I've heard of several cases of palms and fingers being cut by the blade as a result of the forceful removal of the sword from this kind of scabbard. This can happen when the blade becomes rusty and difficult to draw out. Always exercise caution especially if the sword fits tightly in the scabbard.

The cloth is wrapped several times around the sheath. It is thus thicker than the rattan/nito. Your hand will be safer holding the scabbard by the cloth when drawing the sword rather than by the rattan/nito. That is on the assumption that the cloth is strong, bound thickly and tight.

Again, always exercise extra caution when drawing the sword from this kind of scabbard.

Here are some more examples for your reference.

Spunjer · 15th January 2017, 04:09 AM

Hello Nik,
here's another pretty recent kalis you can compare yours with:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kalis

Ian · 21st January 2017, 06:17 PM

de Luzon:

Are these all yours? Or might they come from a certain shop in Ermita owned by Mr. Ven?

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

The cloth also serves a practical purpose. It can protect your hand from injury.

The two sides of the scabbard are made of thin pieces of wood, bound together by rattan/nito vine. Over time, the rattan/nito becomes frail and can easily break when the sword is drawn. I've heard of several cases of palms and fingers being cut by the blade as a result of the forceful removal of the sword from this kind of scabbard. This can happen when the blade becomes rusty and difficult to draw out. Always exercise caution especially if the sword fits tightly in the scabbard.

The cloth is wrapped several times around the sheath. It is thus thicker than the rattan/nito. Your hand will be safer holding the scabbard by the cloth when drawing the sword rather than by the rattan/nito. That is on the assumption that the cloth is strong, bound thickly and tight.

Again, always exercise extra caution when drawing the sword from this kind of scabbard.

Here are some more examples for your reference.

milandro · 31st March 2023, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

A couple more questions:

here's the other side of scabbard with mother of pearl (?) decoration (two pieces missing. Is this kind of scabbard typical of mid 20th century style and possibly original to the blade ?.

The top part of the scabbard did not have rattan(?) bindings. For a complete scabbard, does the binding continue up or this part is decorated in some other fashion?

I have had some thought about this type of kris since I too owned, briefly one with a similar warangka and hilt.

It seemed to me these were made in a left hand construction.

David · 31st March 2023, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I have had some thought about this type of kris since I too owned, briefly one with a similar warangka and hilt.

It seemed to me these were made in a left hand construction.

I believe that might depend entirely upon how the kris is oriented on the body and how it is drawn from the sheath.
Note that in these three cases at least the sheath is oriented in the stash with the front edge of the blade facing upward.
Drawing the blade in this manner has the advantage of placing the blade in a downward striking from a single motion as the blade is removed from the sheath.

milandro · 31st March 2023, 06:00 PM

could be, however, in both cases where the people have their weapon in they hands the pommel would certainly interfere with their wrist if they were to point down the kris even slightly. You can see for example the with the octagonal horse hoof pommel the person drawing it in that position has to do so by positioning the wrist in the inside , once drawn though even simply in the horizontal position the hoof would hit the wrist.

kai · 13th January 2017, 06:38 PM

Hello David,

Quote:

This looks like a nice effort on a later production kris to my eyes.

Looks like we're on the same page...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 13th January 2017, 06:47 PM

Hello Jose,

Quote:

I have seen and even owned one just like this with provenance of the 1960s.

Works for me. Did the provenance establish production in the 60s? If so, where did it originate from?

Quote:

Kai, I would like to see your research and references regarding the Mindanao production of early kris without separate gangas.

No research yet, at least not conclusive enough for publication.

I'll try to post a few examples later.

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 14th January 2017, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Works for me. Did the provenance establish production in the 60s? If so, where did it originate from?

Good question Kai. Yes it actually did establish 1960s production from Sulu/Jolo Island.

Also the scabbard was similar to this scabbard. And Green, the missing pieces were mother-of-pearl, like the other pieces.

Green · 14th January 2017, 02:51 AM

Many thanks all for a very good and clear explanation!

13th January 2017, 11:55 AM	#4
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	A couple more questions: here's the other side of scabbard with mother of pearl (?) decoration (two pieces missing. Is this kind of scabbard typical of mid 20th century style and possibly original to the blade ?. The top part of the scabbard did not have rattan(?) bindings. For a complete scabbard, does the binding continue up or this part is decorated in some other fashion? Attached Images

15th January 2017, 01:06 AM	#7
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	The cloth also serves a practical purpose. It can protect your hand from injury. The two sides of the scabbard are made of thin pieces of wood, bound together by rattan/nito vine. Over time, the rattan/nito becomes frail and can easily break when the sword is drawn. I've heard of several cases of palms and fingers being cut by the blade as a result of the forceful removal of the sword from this kind of scabbard. This can happen when the blade becomes rusty and difficult to draw out. Always exercise caution especially if the sword fits tightly in the scabbard. The cloth is wrapped several times around the sheath. It is thus thicker than the rattan/nito. Your hand will be safer holding the scabbard by the cloth when drawing the sword rather than by the rattan/nito. That is on the assumption that the cloth is strong, bound thickly and tight. Again, always exercise extra caution when drawing the sword from this kind of scabbard. Here are some more examples for your reference. Attached Images Last edited by F. de Luzon; 15th January 2017 at 10:23 AM.

12th January 2017, 02:25 PM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	Many thanks Kai for the comments and explanations. If there ever was a pan Moro conf in 1920s that wouldn't last for more than ten minutes as I'd guess they'd start slashing each other with various sub species of kris before they even began discussing separate or integral ganya. I'll try to give more info when I recieve the 'new' toy and it may take sometimes if the custom people get into their head to witheld it before I get the permit ready. As to the dimension the seller put it at 67cm (26.25 inches) and weight 1 kg. Nik

13th January 2017, 01:05 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	So far I will agree that this is not a separate ganga, and that this is Sulu. Based on the style of okir, ron do at the back of the ganga, and the way the blade as made just before the ganga, I would even place this in the 1960s. I have seen and even owned one just like this with provenance of the 1960s. Kai, I would like to see your research and references regarding the Mindanao production of early kris without separate gangas.

13th January 2017, 03:14 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	While i would agree with Kai that you can indeed find kris pre-1930 that do not have a separate gangya and kris post-1930 that do have separate gangya i will still maintain my position that this kris is at least post-WWII and could, as José has suggested, be as recent as the 1960s. One must always look beyond Cato's "rules" for dating at the approach and quality. Though i have seen numerous post-WWII kris that are wonderfully forged we do see a general decline during this period. Obviously we can also find older kris that are poor quality. So i would say that it is not the quality level per se that helps us date a kris as much as the actual approach and look of that bad execution, if that makes any sense. This looks like a nice effort on a later production kris to my eyes.

15th January 2017, 04:09 AM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Hello Nik, here's another pretty recent kalis you can compare yours with: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kalis

31st March 2023, 06:00 PM	#12
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 498	could be, however, in both cases where the people have their weapon in they hands the pommel would certainly interfere with their wrist if they were to point down the kris even slightly. You can see for example the with the octagonal horse hoof pommel the person drawing it in that position has to do so by positioning the wrist in the inside , once drawn though even simply in the horizontal position the hoof would hit the wrist.

14th January 2017, 02:51 AM	#16
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 325	Many thanks all for a very good and clear explanation!