Maximilian close helmetfor ID

fernando · 3rd January 2017, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSinTX

My knowledge of armor is limited but I am intrigued by the pattern of marks all over this helmet. Was this normal for this style? What would be their purpose or origin?

I am certain that Marcus has made a safe deal and this is not a well built late reproduction, given the price such genuine helmets may cost. Say Marcus, hasn't the seller given you evidence of its authencity ?

CSinTX · 3rd January 2017, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

and this is not a well built late reproduction,

Could it be an earlier reproduction? Maybe 19th C? I don't really know, I just found the pattern of the marks interesting.

Marcus den toom · 3rd January 2017, 07:38 PM

It has come to my attention that some people question my original post about the age. As to its provenance, i do not know i bought it at auction without further information other than there assumption it is 19th century.
Some other members told me they know for sure it can't be original, others claim it is.
All i wanted was to verify my own interpretation which differs from auctions most of the time... and i hope that most of you can agree here that auctions don't know everything if anything at all especially about such items as this close helmet.

Please make this a real discussion and not something behind the curtains, because if that is the way things need to go, i am out!

No than, here are some original pieces of armour (as far as i know) with similar markings.

Marcus den toom · 3rd January 2017, 07:42 PM

ps Batjka, Yes i tried it on, but my head is to big.. sadly

The liner would have been something like this is suppose.

Marcus den toom · 3rd January 2017, 07:49 PM

I specifically looked at tournament armour (stegzeuge) because of the probability of damages.
If anyone has other period armour with damages, please post these. This would be very enlightening.

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2017, 09:42 PM

Marcus, thank you for noting the concerns and comments present outside the discussion here, and I agree, it is best to focus on helmets of this style and original character in examining your example.

There are apparently quite a number of reproduction helms out there available mostly for re enactment and decoration, however these would seem immediately obvious. We must admit that the price realized in this case is incredibly low for an authentic example of this desirable style, so immediately begs the question if is or not.
We always hope to find a 'sleeper' in estate sale or auction, however this is highly unlikely for a specialist auctioneer.

Since here we strive to learn from historic examples, it might have been important to include the description from the source of the example as the discussion would direct to its features and character in compliance with other examples known authentic. If the 19th century description is noted, we should move to prove otherwise.

Thank you for 'staying in' by presenting other examples, and I look forward to others and observations on the elements and fixtures......really want to learn more on these.
No matter what....its quite an attractive helmet!

ulfberth · 4th January 2017, 09:33 AM

Hi Marcus,

thank you for showing us helmets of the same period to compare with.
It does happen and has happened before that auction houses mistakenly label good authentic pieces as 19th C.
That being said, the bigger or more experienced the auction house has, the less this happens.
Looking closely at the helmets presented it seems there are some differences in the impact / pattern strikes .
Most of them have a around dozen of these impact and are different in shape, none have all the same looking impact marks.
The place were these marks visible on the helmets as presented here are in the neck area or the place were a sword blow would have been deflected to in case of a frontal blow.
On the Maximilian Helmet I easily count around 50 impact marks, they all seem to come from the same object the only difference is that some are deeper than others. What concerns me more is that they are structural divided over the whole helmet and appear in places were this helmet would in most cases deflect a hit or blow.
I think we can rule out sword blows completely as many of these strike marks are in the deeper part of the gully or groove.
These impact marks look like they are made by a hammer.
They don't seem to come from a war hammer but rather from the back of a modern hammer.
They have a repetitive similarity,when they were inflected concerning : force , angle, shape of the object and distance , all these circumstances together would be impossible in battle.
In my opinion , the battle blows you see on the other helmets was exactly what they were trying to mimic, but they over did it.
I hate to visualize the situation, a nutcase with other intentions hammering from a distance of 50 CM an otherwise beautiful handmade helmet.
Of course I would like to hear other thoughts as well.

kind regards

Ulfberth

3rd January 2017, 07:38 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	It has come to my attention that some people question my original post about the age. As to its provenance, i do not know i bought it at auction without further information other than there assumption it is 19th century. Some other members told me they know for sure it can't be original, others claim it is. All i wanted was to verify my own interpretation which differs from auctions most of the time... and i hope that most of you can agree here that auctions don't know everything if anything at all especially about such items as this close helmet. Please make this a real discussion and not something behind the curtains, because if that is the way things need to go, i am out! No than, here are some original pieces of armour (as far as i know) with similar markings. Attached Images

3rd January 2017, 07:42 PM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	ps Batjka, Yes i tried it on, but my head is to big.. sadly The liner would have been something like this is suppose. Attached Images

3rd January 2017, 07:49 PM	#5
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	I specifically looked at tournament armour (stegzeuge) because of the probability of damages. If anyone has other period armour with damages, please post these. This would be very enlightening. Attached Images

4th January 2017, 09:33 AM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	Hi Marcus, thank you for showing us helmets of the same period to compare with. It does happen and has happened before that auction houses mistakenly label good authentic pieces as 19th C. That being said, the bigger or more experienced the auction house has, the less this happens. Looking closely at the helmets presented it seems there are some differences in the impact / pattern strikes . Most of them have a around dozen of these impact and are different in shape, none have all the same looking impact marks. The place were these marks visible on the helmets as presented here are in the neck area or the place were a sword blow would have been deflected to in case of a frontal blow. On the Maximilian Helmet I easily count around 50 impact marks, they all seem to come from the same object the only difference is that some are deeper than others. What concerns me more is that they are structural divided over the whole helmet and appear in places were this helmet would in most cases deflect a hit or blow. I think we can rule out sword blows completely as many of these strike marks are in the deeper part of the gully or groove. These impact marks look like they are made by a hammer. They don't seem to come from a war hammer but rather from the back of a modern hammer. They have a repetitive similarity,when they were inflected concerning : force , angle, shape of the object and distance , all these circumstances together would be impossible in battle. In my opinion , the battle blows you see on the other helmets was exactly what they were trying to mimic, but they over did it. I hate to visualize the situation, a nutcase with other intentions hammering from a distance of 50 CM an otherwise beautiful handmade helmet. Of course I would like to hear other thoughts as well. kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images Last edited by ulfberth; 4th January 2017 at 09:49 AM.

3rd January 2017, 09:42 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	Marcus, thank you for noting the concerns and comments present outside the discussion here, and I agree, it is best to focus on helmets of this style and original character in examining your example. There are apparently quite a number of reproduction helms out there available mostly for re enactment and decoration, however these would seem immediately obvious. We must admit that the price realized in this case is incredibly low for an authentic example of this desirable style, so immediately begs the question if is or not. We always hope to find a 'sleeper' in estate sale or auction, however this is highly unlikely for a specialist auctioneer. Since here we strive to learn from historic examples, it might have been important to include the description from the source of the example as the discussion would direct to its features and character in compliance with other examples known authentic. If the 19th century description is noted, we should move to prove otherwise. Thank you for 'staying in' by presenting other examples, and I look forward to others and observations on the elements and fixtures......really want to learn more on these. No matter what....its quite an attractive helmet!