"Armour Piercing Keris" ???

kai · 25th December 2016, 05:38 PM

Hello Alan,

Ok, I'll bite...

Quote:

It is a Tomris, Dhapur Ngapes.

To me this word looks like a marriage of tombak and keris. Possibly something you made up to please the name chasers? On the other hand, nobody asked for a name for this rare beast AFAIK.

I'm completely lost on the intended dhapur connotation though...

Quote:

"Tomris" is the Ngoko term, Krama is "Dhuwaos", and when worn in the wangkingan fashion it is referred to as a "Wangwaosan".

D(h)uwung + wa(h)os, and Wangkingan + wa(h)osan, I guess?

I haven't been able to come up with an explanation for changing wa(h)os into wa(h)osan though. BTW, are dagger-hilted (pusaka) tombak ever worn in the wangkingan fashion to really need a "formal" word - I believed this was a modern fad for easier storage only?

Quote:

It should be noted that the alternate spelling of "Tomris" is "Tumris"

Pretty much flogging a dead horse here, just to please the standard transliteration, as well as Bahasa Indonesia and Malay folks, I assume?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 25th December 2016, 08:32 PM

Thank you Kai.

Yes, "tomris" is a word that I have coined, it is constructed of parts of the words "keris" and "tombak".

"Ngapes" is an anagram --- of what?

"Dhuwaos" I constructed from "Dhuwung" and "Waos", "Waos" is Krama (high level Javanese) for "tombak".

"Wangwaosan" I constructed from "Wangkingan" (a keris worn at the back) and "Waos" ("Waos" is Krama for "tombak"), the suffix "an" has created the noun.

The "Tomris" / "Tumris" explanation was added in response to a query from a gentleman who is not confident in his ability to write English, so he sometimes contacts me by private email to ask a question.

The reason I put this post up is precisely as I said:- it echoes almost exactly the situation of an early experience that I had in the wonders of Javanese communication. One can lecture and theorise forever about any particular subject but a simple example can be worth three or four 5000 word papers.
The example I have given is no more difficult than what I experienced many years ago, but it does require access to a good Javanese dictionary, or a native speaker of Javanese. When I was hit with my experience I did not have a Javanese dictionary, but I did have access to a native speaker. These days there are a number of Javanese dictionaries available on the net.

I do hope that this little diversion has been of value.

Kai, knives and daggers of all kinds have been worn at the back by all societies, and probably since sharp pointy things were invented. I wander around my yard with a pruning knife tucked into my belt at the back, in Jawa farmers are seldom without an arit, and if that arit is not dangling at the end of an arm, it is tucked into the farmer's shorts at the back. However, in Javanese formal dress a tombak that has been mounted as a dagger does not have any place.
In respect of the mounting of a tombak as a dagger, I don't think we should refer to this as a "fad". Historically it was mounted thus for dual use, but in modern times, say the last 100 years or so, it is something that has been done as a necessity, because of the lower ceiling heights in more modern houses.

drdavid · 25th December 2016, 08:47 PM

Ngapes = Sepang?
drd

kai · 25th December 2016, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Ngapes = Sepang?

Yup, good one, David!

kai · 25th December 2016, 09:18 PM

[QUOTE]I do hope that this little diversion has been of value./QUOTE]
Thanks a lot, Alan!

"Fad" wasn't meant as low level ngoko use

- I agree that later development may more appropriate.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 25th December 2016, 09:32 PM

Yep, "sepang", and that "Ng ---" makes the word look so Javanese.

This is the sort of word play and its attendant confusion that is not at all uncommon in conversation with a Javanese person, and this Javanese idea of conversation gets carried into Bahasa Indonesia when they use that language. The end result is that sometimes a non-native speaker --- and I suspect often a native speaker --- will go away wondering exactly what it is that they have been told, only to realise a day or so later that somebody was either lying or having a joke with them.

Javanese people seem to have the idea that they, personally, own every word that they utter.

kai · 30th December 2016, 08:10 AM

Hello Alan,

Sorry for the delayed reply!

Quote:

This is the sort of word play and its attendant confusion that is not at all uncommon in conversation with a Javanese person, and this Javanese idea of conversation gets carried into Bahasa Indonesia when they use that language.

Yes, playing with words and creative use of language is something I've seen, also in some other Asian cultures. Is the use of anagrams really common in spoken Bahasa Jawa? Or restricted to more elitist circles?

Quote:

Javanese people seem to have the idea that they, personally, own every word that they utter.

This seems related to another pervasive cultural trait: The act of giving a name to just about anything seems to be an almost god-like act that keeps the name-giver in supreme control. Utilize an established name and you're bound by adat (and to the originator/peergroup); give a name to a more or less noticeable variant concept, and you seem to be pretty much free to do as it suits you...

Regards,
Kai

25th December 2016, 08:32 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Thank you Kai. Yes, "tomris" is a word that I have coined, it is constructed of parts of the words "keris" and "tombak". "Ngapes" is an anagram --- of what? "Dhuwaos" I constructed from "Dhuwung" and "Waos", "Waos" is Krama (high level Javanese) for "tombak". "Wangwaosan" I constructed from "Wangkingan" (a keris worn at the back) and "Waos" ("Waos" is Krama for "tombak"), the suffix "an" has created the noun. The "Tomris" / "Tumris" explanation was added in response to a query from a gentleman who is not confident in his ability to write English, so he sometimes contacts me by private email to ask a question. The reason I put this post up is precisely as I said:- it echoes almost exactly the situation of an early experience that I had in the wonders of Javanese communication. One can lecture and theorise forever about any particular subject but a simple example can be worth three or four 5000 word papers. The example I have given is no more difficult than what I experienced many years ago, but it does require access to a good Javanese dictionary, or a native speaker of Javanese. When I was hit with my experience I did not have a Javanese dictionary, but I did have access to a native speaker. These days there are a number of Javanese dictionaries available on the net. I do hope that this little diversion has been of value. Kai, knives and daggers of all kinds have been worn at the back by all societies, and probably since sharp pointy things were invented. I wander around my yard with a pruning knife tucked into my belt at the back, in Jawa farmers are seldom without an arit, and if that arit is not dangling at the end of an arm, it is tucked into the farmer's shorts at the back. However, in Javanese formal dress a tombak that has been mounted as a dagger does not have any place. In respect of the mounting of a tombak as a dagger, I don't think we should refer to this as a "fad". Historically it was mounted thus for dual use, but in modern times, say the last 100 years or so, it is something that has been done as a necessity, because of the lower ceiling heights in more modern houses.

25th December 2016, 08:47 PM	#3
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Ngapes = Sepang? drd

25th December 2016, 09:18 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	[QUOTE]I do hope that this little diversion has been of value./QUOTE] Thanks a lot, Alan! "Fad" wasn't meant as low level ngoko use - I agree that later development may more appropriate. Regards, Kai

25th December 2016, 09:32 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yep, "sepang", and that "Ng ---" makes the word look so Javanese. This is the sort of word play and its attendant confusion that is not at all uncommon in conversation with a Javanese person, and this Javanese idea of conversation gets carried into Bahasa Indonesia when they use that language. The end result is that sometimes a non-native speaker --- and I suspect often a native speaker --- will go away wondering exactly what it is that they have been told, only to realise a day or so later that somebody was either lying or having a joke with them. Javanese people seem to have the idea that they, personally, own every word that they utter.