"Armour Piercing Keris" ???

David · 22nd December 2016, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Without wanting to hijack Paul's thread - great to see some tombak here for a change!

Well, i was letting this slide, but if we are going to continue to discuss tombak we really do need to take it to the Ethno Forum. It was decided at the very start of this keris gallery that this forum would be for the discussion to keris only and all other tosan aji would be discussed on the Ethno Forum. Thanks...

Kulino · 23rd December 2016, 11:00 AM

Sorry David, you're right.
I'll post it on the Etno forum. Can I cut and paste or what's the way to do this most effectively?

Gustav · 23rd December 2016, 12:52 PM

Tombak or Keris?

Thank you, Kulino, for posting these.

Battara · 23rd December 2016, 01:33 PM

This Bugis looking keris seems to me to have a newer blade.

Gustav · 23rd December 2016, 02:06 PM

The question is, what means "newer" in the context.

If about 100 years of age is new for you, then it certainly isn't new. I would say, quite a lot older than new.

The Gonjo of course is newer then blade, but surely also antique.

David · 23rd December 2016, 05:47 PM

Well, that's a good question Gustav. I would certainly say that it is being currently presented as a keris sepang, though it may well have started life as a tombak. I must say that i find it intriguing and handsome.

Sajen · 23rd December 2016, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

This Bugis looking keris seems to me to have a newer blade.

It look Malay to my eyes, Terengganu!?

Gustav · 23rd December 2016, 09:38 PM

Thank you David. Alan, thank you very much for your remarks!

Detlef, it could very well be the case. On this I am not sure myself, because it is so off-standard. This Sampir form we encounter also in Johor-Riau and Riau Lingga, and perhaps I favorite these possibilities more.

GIO · 23rd December 2016, 06:06 PM

[QUOTE=Gustav]Tombak or Keris?

Tombak IMHO

A. G. Maisey · 23rd December 2016, 06:55 PM

This is a very scarce item, seldom seen, and I have never previously seen a Bugis style one.

My guess is a family pusaka mounted as a keris.

It is a Tomris, Dhapur Ngapes.

Edit: --- In response to a private query I thought I'd better add this:-

"Tomris" is the Ngoko term, Krama is "Dhuwaos", and when worn in the wangkingan fashion it is referred to as a "Wangwaosan".

It should be noted that the alternate spelling of "Tomris" is "Tumris"

David · 23rd December 2016, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...and when worn in the wangkingan fashion it is referred to as a "Wangwaosan".

Alan, would you mind expanding upon what you mean by "worn in the wangkingan fashion". Thanks!

A. G. Maisey · 24th December 2016, 12:43 AM

As worn in formal style, at the back.

kai · 25th December 2016, 05:38 PM

Hello Alan,

Ok, I'll bite...

Quote:

It is a Tomris, Dhapur Ngapes.

To me this word looks like a marriage of tombak and keris. Possibly something you made up to please the name chasers? On the other hand, nobody asked for a name for this rare beast AFAIK.

I'm completely lost on the intended dhapur connotation though...

Quote:

"Tomris" is the Ngoko term, Krama is "Dhuwaos", and when worn in the wangkingan fashion it is referred to as a "Wangwaosan".

D(h)uwung + wa(h)os, and Wangkingan + wa(h)osan, I guess?

I haven't been able to come up with an explanation for changing wa(h)os into wa(h)osan though. BTW, are dagger-hilted (pusaka) tombak ever worn in the wangkingan fashion to really need a "formal" word - I believed this was a modern fad for easier storage only?

Quote:

It should be noted that the alternate spelling of "Tomris" is "Tumris"

Pretty much flogging a dead horse here, just to please the standard transliteration, as well as Bahasa Indonesia and Malay folks, I assume?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 25th December 2016, 08:32 PM

Thank you Kai.

Yes, "tomris" is a word that I have coined, it is constructed of parts of the words "keris" and "tombak".

"Ngapes" is an anagram --- of what?

"Dhuwaos" I constructed from "Dhuwung" and "Waos", "Waos" is Krama (high level Javanese) for "tombak".

"Wangwaosan" I constructed from "Wangkingan" (a keris worn at the back) and "Waos" ("Waos" is Krama for "tombak"), the suffix "an" has created the noun.

The "Tomris" / "Tumris" explanation was added in response to a query from a gentleman who is not confident in his ability to write English, so he sometimes contacts me by private email to ask a question.

The reason I put this post up is precisely as I said:- it echoes almost exactly the situation of an early experience that I had in the wonders of Javanese communication. One can lecture and theorise forever about any particular subject but a simple example can be worth three or four 5000 word papers.
The example I have given is no more difficult than what I experienced many years ago, but it does require access to a good Javanese dictionary, or a native speaker of Javanese. When I was hit with my experience I did not have a Javanese dictionary, but I did have access to a native speaker. These days there are a number of Javanese dictionaries available on the net.

I do hope that this little diversion has been of value.

Kai, knives and daggers of all kinds have been worn at the back by all societies, and probably since sharp pointy things were invented. I wander around my yard with a pruning knife tucked into my belt at the back, in Jawa farmers are seldom without an arit, and if that arit is not dangling at the end of an arm, it is tucked into the farmer's shorts at the back. However, in Javanese formal dress a tombak that has been mounted as a dagger does not have any place.
In respect of the mounting of a tombak as a dagger, I don't think we should refer to this as a "fad". Historically it was mounted thus for dual use, but in modern times, say the last 100 years or so, it is something that has been done as a necessity, because of the lower ceiling heights in more modern houses.

23rd December 2016, 12:52 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Tombak or Keris? Thank you, Kulino, for posting these. Attached Images

23rd December 2016, 06:55 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	This is a very scarce item, seldom seen, and I have never previously seen a Bugis style one. My guess is a family pusaka mounted as a keris. It is a Tomris, Dhapur Ngapes. Edit: --- In response to a private query I thought I'd better add this:- "Tomris" is the Ngoko term, Krama is "Dhuwaos", and when worn in the wangkingan fashion it is referred to as a "Wangwaosan". It should be noted that the alternate spelling of "Tomris" is "Tumris" Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 23rd December 2016 at 08:51 PM. Reason: clarification

23rd December 2016, 11:00 AM	#2
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	Sorry David, you're right. I'll post it on the Etno forum. Can I cut and paste or what's the way to do this most effectively?

23rd December 2016, 01:33 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	This Bugis looking keris seems to me to have a newer blade.

23rd December 2016, 02:06 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	The question is, what means "newer" in the context. If about 100 years of age is new for you, then it certainly isn't new. I would say, quite a lot older than new. The Gonjo of course is newer then blade, but surely also antique.

23rd December 2016, 05:47 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well, that's a good question Gustav. I would certainly say that it is being currently presented as a keris sepang, though it may well have started life as a tombak. I must say that i find it intriguing and handsome.

23rd December 2016, 09:38 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Thank you David. Alan, thank you very much for your remarks! Detlef, it could very well be the case. On this I am not sure myself, because it is so off-standard. This Sampir form we encounter also in Johor-Riau and Riau Lingga, and perhaps I favorite these possibilities more.

23rd December 2016, 06:06 PM	#9
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 328	[QUOTE=Gustav]Tombak or Keris? Tombak IMHO

24th December 2016, 12:43 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	As worn in formal style, at the back.

25th December 2016, 08:32 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Thank you Kai. Yes, "tomris" is a word that I have coined, it is constructed of parts of the words "keris" and "tombak". "Ngapes" is an anagram --- of what? "Dhuwaos" I constructed from "Dhuwung" and "Waos", "Waos" is Krama (high level Javanese) for "tombak". "Wangwaosan" I constructed from "Wangkingan" (a keris worn at the back) and "Waos" ("Waos" is Krama for "tombak"), the suffix "an" has created the noun. The "Tomris" / "Tumris" explanation was added in response to a query from a gentleman who is not confident in his ability to write English, so he sometimes contacts me by private email to ask a question. The reason I put this post up is precisely as I said:- it echoes almost exactly the situation of an early experience that I had in the wonders of Javanese communication. One can lecture and theorise forever about any particular subject but a simple example can be worth three or four 5000 word papers. The example I have given is no more difficult than what I experienced many years ago, but it does require access to a good Javanese dictionary, or a native speaker of Javanese. When I was hit with my experience I did not have a Javanese dictionary, but I did have access to a native speaker. These days there are a number of Javanese dictionaries available on the net. I do hope that this little diversion has been of value. Kai, knives and daggers of all kinds have been worn at the back by all societies, and probably since sharp pointy things were invented. I wander around my yard with a pruning knife tucked into my belt at the back, in Jawa farmers are seldom without an arit, and if that arit is not dangling at the end of an arm, it is tucked into the farmer's shorts at the back. However, in Javanese formal dress a tombak that has been mounted as a dagger does not have any place. In respect of the mounting of a tombak as a dagger, I don't think we should refer to this as a "fad". Historically it was mounted thus for dual use, but in modern times, say the last 100 years or so, it is something that has been done as a necessity, because of the lower ceiling heights in more modern houses.